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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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 Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: Did Kerry Cozzy Up with Hanoi to save his career? |
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I don't know if this holds water or not, but I had an interesting thought that came to mind:
Did Kerry cozy up with VN to keep from being charged with War Crimes? Technically, I think VN could had filed charges against Kerry in the Hague after Kerry personally admitted to violating the geneva's. Who is to say they didn't make an offer to Kerry to keep him out of the hague in return for some cheerleading here at home?
Interesting questions..... |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 4:38 pm Post subject: Kerry's war crimes |
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I know this may surprise a lot of people, but I don't buy into Kerry's being liable for war crimes, even though he admitted to committing "war crimes"; let me explain:
Without getting his exact quote, I believe he said "I committed war crimes, in that I ....." and then goes on to mention such things as free fire zones, interdicting fire, using a .50 cal for anti-personnel work, etc. The problem is - unlike what he said about us - that none of those things he specifically talked about are war crimes! He may be a slimeball, but he ain't stupid! He put all the REAL war crimes stuff on us! Personally, I think pursuing Kerry's admitted commission of war crimes is a red herring, and that he knew exactly what he was saying. Comments welcome, and Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Walt, I am right there with you.
Kerry's "confession" was exceptionally well-crafted to leave an impression upon the public.
Wonder if Bobby Kennedy's speech writer was his coach on that one, too. 
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry's war crimes |
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| waltjones wrote: | | Personally, I think pursuing Kerry's admitted commission of war crimes is a red herring, and that he knew exactly what he was saying. Comments welcome, and Semper Fi! |
I agree except that by leaving his "confession" unchallenged, I (we) am (are) essentially accepting his calling me (us) "war criminals";
Except perhaps for the "burning villages", his statement is wrong only in stating those acts were "contrary" to Geneva Conventions etc. They were acts committed by "thousands" (me included) and "where written, established policy".
I personally believe we need to find a way to dispute the accusation that these were and are atrocities and crimes. This is not just a slander of the Viet Nam vet and the U. S. Government of the '60's and '70's. I am fairly certain that some of these 'tactics' are still in use in Afganistahn and Iraq. Hell, they aren't just using 50's, their using 25mm's. 
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, if he fired on civilians - and wasn't there rules for enagement in free-fire zones? Didn't at one time you had to get permission from saigon before you could fire at will in a free-fire zone? |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | | Well, if he fired on civilians - and wasn't there rules for enagement in free-fire zones? Didn't at one time you had to get permission from saigon before you could fire at will in a free-fire zone? |
As I recall a free fire zone were those areas were additional political authorization was not required to utilize indirect fire, conduct air strikes or conduct offensive operations, but all operations still had to be conducted in compliance with Geneva, Hague, UMCJ, etc., etc. Someone correct me if that is wrong.
According to Col. Harry Summers in his book Vietnam War Almanac "Only uninhabited areas or areas totally under enemy control were approved by Vietnamese authorities as free fire zones" and official use of the term stopped in Dec. 1965 and the official term for thsoe area became "Specified Strike Zones".
It was never permisable to fire on civilians and that was not a part of Kerrys Meet the Press confession.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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DevilDon
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Milwaukee
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 12:46 am Post subject: Geneva conventions |
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| I seem to recall that use of a certain caliber weapon directly against an individual was against the Geneva Convention. I've read with awe about Gunny Hathcock's kill with the M2 but I've never been sure. Can anybody shed any light on this subject? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Geneva conventions |
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| DevilDon wrote: | | I seem to recall that use of a certain caliber weapon directly against an individual was against the Geneva Convention. |
Myth.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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colmurph
Ensign
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Geneva conventions |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | DevilDon wrote: | | I seem to recall that use of a certain caliber weapon directly against an individual was against the Geneva Convention. |
Myth. |
Correct.....Urban legend. We had 40mm "Dusters" on a lot of the fire bases and there were no NVA aircraft to shoot at. Quad 50's and the Dusters were used for perimeter defense. We also had 105mm and 155mm "Beehive" rounds that were used for direct fire at personell.
Aircraft had 2.75 inch rockets with "Beehive" warheads for use against ground troops. I once had occasion to request fire support from BB 62 the NEW JERSEY and it sent over 16" shells. The only prohibition is the use of hollow point ammunition and soft lead ammunition in small arms. The .38 ammo that Pilots were armed with (the ones that had a S & W .3 was copper jacketed. The only ammo that we used that was lead was the OO Buckshot we used in the shotguns that some carried on patrol. |
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colmurph
Ensign
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Geneva conventions |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | DevilDon wrote: | | I seem to recall that use of a certain caliber weapon directly against an individual was against the Geneva Convention. |
Myth. |
Correct.....Urban legend. We had 40mm "Dusters" on a lot of the fire bases and there were no NVA aircraft to shoot at. Quad 50's and the Dusters were used for perimeter defense. We also had 105mm and 155mm "Beehive" rounds that were used for direct fire at personell.
Aircraft had 2.75 inch rockets with "Beehive" warheads for use against ground troops. I once had occasion to request fire support from BB 62 the NEW JERSEY and it sent over 16" shells. The only prohibition is the use of hollow point ammunition and soft lead ammunition in small arms. The .38 ammo that Pilots were armed with (the ones that had a S & W .3 was copper jacketed. The only ammo that we used that was lead was the OO Buckshot we used in the shotguns that some carried on patrol. |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry's war crimes |
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| waltjones wrote: | I know this may surprise a lot of people, but I don't buy into Kerry's being liable for war crimes, even though he admitted to committing "war crimes"; let me explain:
Without getting his exact quote, I believe he said "I committed war crimes, in that I ....." and then goes on to mention such things as free fire zones, interdicting fire, using a .50 cal for anti-personnel work, etc. The problem is - unlike what he said about us - that none of those things he specifically talked about are war crimes!
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Former assistant secretary of defense and Fletcher School of Diplomacy professor, W. Scott Thompson, recalled a conversation with the late Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. as follows:
"[T]he fabled and distinguished chief of naval operations,Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, told me _ 30 years ago when he was still CNO _ that during his own command of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO, young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass,by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets.`We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control.'"
Maybe there is records! |
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