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New info to help clarify this debate
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paideia
Former Member


Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ord33, the link was great. Thanks. I agree with one of the author's many sentiments. Namely, that Kerry should make another statement clarifying what went on during those meetings. There are a number of very concerning, but circumstantial, allegations that he makes which should be verified or put to rest.

I also appreciated also the author's "full disclosure". I find that so-often to be lacking in on-line sources.
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ccr
Commander


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidila, here is the transcript from the latest SBVT ad.... I think it lays out in a pretty powerful manner how that Kerry betrayed those who were left behind. His own words are from his 1971 testimony before congress...

Quote:
John Kerry: “They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads. . .”

Joe Ponder: “The accusations that John Kerry made against the veterans who served in Vietnam was just devastating.”

John Kerry: “. . . randomly shot at civilians. . .”

Joe Ponder: “It hurt me more than any physical wounds I had.”

John Kerry: “. . . cut off limbs, blown up bodies. . .”

Ken Cordier: “That was part of the torture, was, uh, to sign a statement that you had committed war crimes.”

John Kerry: “. . . razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan. . .”

Paul Gallanti: “John Kerry gave the enemy for free what I, and many of my comrades in North Vietnam, in the prison camps took torture to avoid saying. It demoralized us.”

John Kerry: “. . . crimes committed on a day to day basis. . . ”

Ken Cordier: “He betrayed us in the past, how could we be loyal to him now?”

John Kerry: “. . . ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.”

Paul Gallanti: “He dishonored his country, and, more importantly the people he served with. He just sold them out.”

Announcer : “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement.”



You can also view the ad here: http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=Ads
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Last edited by ccr on Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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paideia
Former Member


Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject: Please.... Reply with quote

Hey all,

I just noticed someone changed my posting on page 1 of this forum to read the opposite of what I wrote. Honestly, I appreciate the discussion but free speech is impossible to have with this type of revisionism. This is simply ridiculous.

Would you please change it back?

Before the change it read:

"He favorably quotes the Washington Post article I mentioned (as did you). Honestly, although there is tremendous controversy over a number of details of the Swift boat ambush, based on this article which we all seem to agree is compelling, Kerry is very brave. Noone disputes that he turned his boat around in the middle of an ambush and went back to rescue Rassman. The other vets on the river that day were quite courageous. My thanks to all of them."
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer


Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This part is amazing.Since it was over 30 years ago when it was said.

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=EdgeofTreason
As the New York Times article notes, the wives of several other POWs showed up and denounced Kerry for "'constantly using our suffering and grief' for his political ambitions." One of the angry POW wives reportedly shouted: "What office are you going to run for next?"


Last edited by kmudd on Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gee williger
Seaman Recruit


Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Please.... Reply with quote

paideia wrote:
I just noticed someone changed my posting on page 1 of this forum to read the opposite of what I wrote. Honestly, I appreciate the discussion but free speech is impossible to have with this type of revisionism. This is simply ridiculous.

Would you please change it back?

Before the change it read:

"He favorably quotes the Washington Post article I mentioned (as did you). Honestly, although there is tremendous controversy over a number of details of the Swift boat ambush, based on this article which we all seem to agree is compelling, Kerry is very brave. Noone disputes that he turned his boat around in the middle of an ambush and went back to rescue Rassman. The other vets on the river that day were quite courageous. My thanks to all of them."


if this allegation is true, then it is really a serious breach of the role of an admin. To change a post and put words in someones mouth is much worse than simply misquoting them. It is to make them appear to have said something that they did not and is the vilest form of censorship.

perhaps an admin can comment on whether this has occured, and if it did then what the reasoning was behind it.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral


Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paideia,

I've never seen the mods change any messages so I don't know what the explanation is for your message on page one changing, but it obviously has been changed and subsequent messages in the thread prove that because they quote some of it.

The skeptic in me wonders if you edited it yourself in order to try to discredit the mods...
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ccr
Commander


Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 325

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paidila, if you look at my post on this page, you will see an "edited x times at blah, blah, blah by ccr".

If you look at other threads mods have edited, you will see the same.

I looked at your post and there is no edited slug.

I would say that it is likely your post was not edited by anyone.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin


Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we edit a message, we usually write "Admin note" or "Moderator note" to preface our own comments.

Can you provide a link to the message in question?

Thanks,
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tvaughan
Seaman


Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 182

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paideia wrote:
Thanks. I haven't read it yet. Both Tour of Duty and Unfit for Command have been both summarized and taken apart in the press (e.g., the Post article), making me hesitant to spend the $$. But, sounds like I should.

Warning by Moderator: Any admonishment of othe members will be done by ADMIN. Now, conduct yourself accordingly.


Where have you seen UNFIT FOR COMMAND taken apart in the press?

I haven't seen that, though I have seen a great deal of frustration in their inability to do so.

I think the most successful thing the press has done is suggest that the 94 boat believed there was hostile fire. They have not been able to address why there is no damage from 5000 meters of small arms fire on a 75 meter wide river.

I think anyone outside of the military may be confused by citations that claim there was hostile fire, but those who have served know that is completely dependent on who wrote the report and that it is not exactly passed around to be proofread by the unit.

They have several times said a new eyewitness disagrees with UNFIT FOR COMMAND but on closer inspection, that disagreement seems to be something trivial (the age of the VC).

I think if they could pick apart UNFIT FOR COMMAND they absolutely would have already.

Please let me know where that has been done.
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ord33
Rear Admiral


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paideia,

Thanks for looking at the links, and taking the time to try to find the facts. I knew you couldnt be all that bad, you're from Knoxville after all!? DId you go to UT?
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SF
Seaman Recruit


Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:52 pm    Post subject: Summarized by press? Reply with quote

"Summarized and taken apart in the press"?? Please supply citations.

I have never seen ANY press summary of the allegations in the book, or debunking thereof. The WaPo story dealt with only one of the numerous allegations in the book
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral


Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navy3x,

It's the next-to-last message on the first page, last paragraph.

It has definitely been changed, and there is a quote from it toward the top of the second page that shows the original wording.

I don't think the mods modified it. I'm not sure who else, other than the original poster, can do so.
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CERDIP
Seaman Recruit


Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You GottaBeKidding wrote:
Navy3x,
It has definitely been changed, and there is a quote from it toward the top of the second page that shows the original wording.


I can't find the quote you mean...


Last edited by CERDIP on Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy


Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The quote is here: http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=32123#32123
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BC
PO3


Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 288
Location: Oklahoma City

PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is what theya re talking about.

Quote:
paideia Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:03 pm
He favorably quotes the Washington Post article I mentioned (as did you). Honestly, although there is tremendous controversy over a number of details of the Swift boat ambush, based on this article which we all seem to agree is compelling, Kerry is not very brave. Everyone disputes that he turned his boat around in the middle of an ambush and went back to rescue Rassman. The other vets on the river that day were quite courageous. My thanks to all of them.


Polaris Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:07 pm
Quote:
No one disputes that he turned his boat around in the middle of an ambush and went back to rescue Rassman. Kerry and the other vets on the river that day were quite courageous. My thanks to all of them.

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