SwiftVets.com

[Leatherneckm31]

Almont -- good one...

I would add that I spent more time in Long Beach Naval Hosptial than Kerry did in Vietnam...

Should I run for president?
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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."- -Aldous Huxley

[Paul]

"he's going to convince a lot of those old guys . . ."

I have to agree that most of the "old guys", if defined as members of the pre-Baby Boomer generation, knew long before now.

However, most are now passing on these days or have already died, like my own late father, who always knew that Senator Kerry was a low mercenary piece of work. This is probably the main reason for the current situation. It’s now the Baby boom generation and it’s progeny that are the majority of our population. The Boomers are increasingly now “the old guys.”
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Paul

[MikeWinn]

You know what scares me? A large part of our voting population doesn't even know when the Vietnam war was, much less what it means to those of us who do and went through what we went through. Especially those under 40. Our wonderful public school system has taught the children that the 'conflict' was nothing more than a 'bad period' in our history. Hence, the concern we all share here falls on both deaf and dumb ears.
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LOCK & LOAD!


GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man.

[Paul]

I'll add my good for Senator Dole as well.

I also see where Senator Dole has gotten right to the heart of the matter in one a couple of statements where he's referred to Senator Kerry's exaggerated emphasis on his wounds awards and his use of the three Purple Hearts awarded for superficial wounds as his early ticket out of the one year tour that he had volunteered to serve.

I've said it before, even it seems to have been a valid option that Senator Kerry used his Purple Hearts for (and even if there were no questions at all regarding the awarding of the Purple Heart Medals, which there appear to be reasonable ones regarding, even if disabling wounds are not a requirement of one's being wounded while engaged with an enemy, which is), then no one has to be impressed that a navy Lieutenant would take such an option using awards for these kind of minor wounds as the basis of his early out rather than fulfilling the one year tour that he had volunteered to serve. That kind of legalistic quick exit is not what comes to mind when one hears the phrase, “in the highest traditions of the naval service” or thinks of as a leadership trait.

Which is precisely how Senator Kerry his trying to bill his 4 month service in Vietnam: as a concrete example of his leadership traits.

So while Senator Dole notes that he warned Senator Kerry some months ago not to go too far, personally, I'll follow Senator Kerry's wanting us to take his service in Vietnam as a concrete example of uninspiring and unimpressive "leadership" traits.

And a good bet else too. I also agree with Senator Dole's statement that Senator Kerry should apologize for his post-service pro-Hanoi actions in the VVAW movement. I also believe there's a good many other sorry actions by Senator Kerry in the course of his history in public life.

The majority in the US Navy during the Vietnam era were volunteers. ALL who served on PBRs on the rivers, PCFs on the coast (and later the rivers), and part of the joint riverine assault forces with the 9th Infantry Division were volunteers. Just like the Air Force and Marines, well over 90% of those sailors KIA in Vietnam were volunteers. The overwhelming majority fulfilled the tours they volunteered for, many extending and serving longer.

The Three-wounds award option that Senator Kerry used to bring his tour short, was not mandatory. A sailor was perfectly free to fulfill his the one year tour he had volunteered for, Purple Heart Medals or no. From what I’ve seen it appears that the majority, officers and enlisted, did and men like LtJg Kerry were in the minority.

So, again, good for Senator Dole. A lot of very good statements made by him!

PS. Sorry it took so long to edit this. My computer is giving me troubles.
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Paul

[Paul]

"You know what scares me? A large part of our voting population doesn't even know when the Vietnam war was . . . "

Hi Mike:

I fully agree with you. And not only for what it means for you guys who served there, but, personally, I believe for millions throughout SE Asia and the Pacific rim who benefited because of the service too.

But it's not just Vietnam. The Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944 was the largest naval battle in the history of the world, on a scale never seen before or since. There were Americans who performed extraordinary acts of heroism. The men who Admiral Halsey I believe rightly referred to as ordinary men who did extraordinary things. In his novel War and Remembrance, Herman Wouk noted, especially regarding the acts of the men in the Battle off Samar in the Battle (and others) of Leyte Gulf, that our school children should be taught about them and our enemies should ponder them.

I strongly suspect that because our school children are not taught about such as those, but instead taught increasingly peculiar new interpretations of even such as the second world war these days, not to mention a great deal else, that it's one reason that our enemies don't even think of pondering such examples of past Americans.

I tend to agree with those who have pointed out that we're probably still years away from an overall objective study of the US in SE Asia (and not just '65 through '73, personally I think for at least 1954 through 1975) and I don't think we Americans take a very objective view of the French Indochina War or the post-75 consequences of the north Vietnamese victory in south Vietnam and the subsequent north Vietnamese offensives and victories in neighboring countries either [pathetic in itself this many years distant from the conflict]. However, I do agree with the statement that history will be far more generous to those Americans who served fighting the north Vietnamese offensive to conquer the former French Indochina region of SE Asia, in Laos '57 through '62, and in the former Republic of Vietnam, '61 through '73, than to those who did not.

I believe that the cause was just, but I can’t defend the ways that the conflict was conducted by the majority of our national leaders, elected or appointed. Or the subsequent abandonment of our anti-Communist allies.

But for those who served inside the Republic of Vietnam, or off the of coasts of either it or north Vietnam, and in neighboring countries, it's all the more to their credit that they did so well: Especially our people inside the Republic of Vietnam where I believe it's been rightly said that they were placed by our elected officials inside a box in an undeclared war; equipment-wise our rifleman were outgunned man for man by their north Vietnamese infantryman counterparts (including the north Vietnamese VC insurgents in the south); the strategic air campaign while dropping an extraordinary tonnage of ordnance was nevertheless quite limited in its targets until one brief episode in late '72; The logistical war was fought most egregiously badly due to civilian micro-management and overruling of the warnings and recommendations of the military and naval commanders, leaving north Vietnamese supply bases in the north untouched and their logistical bases in neighboring Laos (supplied via the network of jungle trails dubbed the Ho Chi Minh Trail) and Cambodia (with its deep water port supplied via cargo ships transiting south Vietnamese rivers) free to operate with impunity until 1971, north Vietnamese ports effectively open, and also not until late '72 fought seriously and then only briefly. . .

And yet US forces endured assaults from an enemy attacking them on his terms at times of his choosing, employing terrorist, insurgent and conventional tactics while never suffering a major tactical defeat and routinely dealing them to that enemy during each north Vietnamese offensive, whether by NVA or VC units.

Something else our school children should be taught.

Further, I can't help but agree with General Westmoreland's statement, even at this point in time, and in contrast to some that I hear, that the only Americans who paid any price or bore any burdens in Vietnam were those who served there and their loved ones.

There was certainly no shortage of real heroes in Vietnam, the majority of guys may not have been, but the majority did do their job, while there was also a minority of dirtballs, cowards, even criminals who disgraced themselves as well.

Even after the war, the majority of Vietnam Vets came home and did well for themselves. In spite of the shabby treatment and the advantage of those who shirked service and received a head start, whether through deferrals or in a host of other ways.

What I find disturbing and disgraceful is that only self-serving caricatures of one kind or another regarding Vietnam are taught or receive coverage in our media, and the dirtballs, pseudo-criminals and mediocre have gotten most of the focus and the attention over the past few decades. Like the other fella asked, why the emphasis on the Loser Image all these years? And I would add why the emphasis on what could rightly be termed the "losers" themselves, or even only the mediocre, rather than on those who performed genuine acts of heroism and on the majority of millions of honorable men who did their job, even under miserable or less than ideal circumstances.

Thinking about it afterward the other day, I should have been clearer. There was a time in this nation when the majority of its population once admired heroes and genuine acts of self-less heroism, anything but common, and expected men to do their job, something as common. Taken on average, it really is a different population today.

With all of the focus on Self, and all of the syllogisms of the past turned on their heads and twisted so that lies are arrived at logically such that acts of cowardice are presented as brave and lack of service as the "real service", and perversion as normal, are presented as new "common sense", then all the more I remember that old fella's statement to me that I mentioned before, in the dive out in downtown Pheobus, Hampton, VA, after work when I was still in my dress blues, "remember, that's a proud uniform."

He was right. And precisely because of those preceded me who wore it before me. The older I get and the more I see, then the more I remember that ole guy's statement. I believe that he was right and that such as that needs to be passed on, and a good deal else as well. Our young people aren't crap or garbage. I believe that mostly, they're just badly taught and formed by the creeps who have token over and us Boomers have done a poor job of passing on to them what's their birthright and their heritage never mind holding them to the high expectations of rising individually to fill them and then pass them on themselves.

Fighting on one's own terms, with overwhelming force, is not a military or naval doctrine, but only a statement of the ideal when circumstances allow. . . There are plenty of examples of Americans who had to fight when they weren't able to choose the time, the place or were vastly outgunned. So, hey, we may only be peons, and we may be getting older, and the creeps are mostly in charge and in place throughout our society, but at our age we're not called to anything quite so personally hazardous or daunting these days as this example.

We're not dead yet.

To hell with the creeps. They’re effectively sterile and self-annihilating anyway. They don't tend to reproduce themselves, they're only skill in reproduction is to pollute the minds and characters of others, especially the young. They're like the former Soviets in many ways. . . No real good consequences from them and they do real damage, but their days are effectively numbered. Even if the damage persists at the hours of our deaths and after we're gone, then even us peons, before we leave this earth, we can clean up our own acts where needed and still pass on whatever little we know or can, at the very minimum. "Press on Regardless" was the motto of the first ship I was on. It comes to mind frequently these days too.

Man, I am verbose, I admist. But, hey, I'm serious just the same. From the "worm's eye view" of my peon self, it's all that I know to do at the moment, but am open to any other suggestions.
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Paul

[MikeWinn]

Paul,

The only thing I can add to that marvelous piece of writing is Sierra Hotel,
(Bravo Zulu in swabbie terms, lol)


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LOCK & LOAD!


GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man.

[BuffaloJack]

GOD BLESS BOB DOLE.

[ALMOUNT]

[Paul]

"Sierra Hotel"

Say, I know what this means! LOL

Seriously, thanks Mike, I appreciate the compliment.

Equally, I do share your concern and certainly don't mean to downplay the gravity of the situation. I was glad to see Senator Dole speak up. His statements rightly carry more weight than a peon like me.
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Paul

[Paul]

" 'Jar Head' is a term of endearment...not name calling...thought I ought to clarify that... " {ALMOUNT}

Good point. I think there's no question that in this instance this is how it's used.

Although, truth to tell though, I can think back on at least a few times years ago when I've heard it used as anything but a "term of endearment'. . .

Like anything else, usually, the context depended on who was using the term and the words or phrases that preceded or followed it at the time, not to mention the expression on the man's face and his physical stance when making them . . . usually off base somewhere on liberty in this type of instance

Even playing around with some friends at work who served as Marines and who took it upon themselves to demonstrate their rendition of a "navy salute" for me, then I didn't hesitate for a minute to kick in with my own comments about EX-Jarheads and observations on the fine job they always did as Naval Station Gate-Guards . . . We're all getting pretty long in the tooth these days and have a lot of fun with this stuff now. . .

Seriously though, my first ship had a Marine detachment and our division in particular had a lot of contact and interaction with the Marines aboard, not to mention all of the sentry watches of us non-rate sailors stood over the years under the Sergeant and Corporeal of the Guard. . . But every time a boot Marine came aboard, one Sgt in particular would send them down to us to "get" a "GM punch". The expressions on their face when they got their first GM Punches were priceless . . . And someimes he'd send one right after another, so you knew they weren't fessing up to or warning their buddies (which we didn't either on that kind of stuff) LOL

Bottom line: A concrete example of inter-service cooperation. No boot Marine who ever came by asking for a GM Punch EVER left without having received one from one of us. It was the least us squids could do for our jarhead brothers-in-arms. . .

Memories . . .
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Paul

[Paul]

Hey Mike:

Truth to tell, who really deserves that Sierro Hotel, Bravo Zulu and a profound thanks I believe is John O'Neill and the Swift Boat Vets for Truth and all those associated with them. And the majority of Vietnam Vets too.

I'm not getting merely sentimental here, but, seriously, I believe that this is much bigger than the Presidential Election by itself. Talk about stepping up the plate. Geez, this is the first serious widespread public assault on the heart of what's driven what I only mention above that I've seen in my lifetime.

From what I'm seeing, then it's not just Kerry alone. But it had become So Bad that Kerry and the rest thought they were so entrenched and "mainstream" now that they'd get away with the whole absurd switch. And it looked they might.

In going after John Kerry and his lies openly and straight on like they have, then it really is going after the whole sorry mess. John Kerry, those of his pro-Hanoi mentors who helped to establish Kerry and drove the false propaganda effort in this nation during the war, and all of the novelists and screenwriters who put statements from Kerry's public testimonies in the mouths of the fictional characters in their works and enshrined it all as part of our culture, all of the "educators" and their false caricature renditions that relied on it all, the miserable false "Loser" image the other fella couldn't stand, and neither can I, and all of the phony “Vietnam Vets” who used it all to build their pitiful "personas" . . . all the putrid and bad influences from it throughout our culture.

Seriously, from what I can see, the heart of the false propaganda and sorry image is coming under severe question, open scrutiny and serious assault for the first time ever since it was unleashed openly and intensely around the world in 1968.

And if this 'house of cards' comes down, then if not a panacea, it's certainly a Very Good Start. There's a good bit else tied to it all that might finally begin to come into question as a result. Like I said, our people aren't garbage. No doubt in my mind that there'll be young American historians who'll step in and do the real digging and work, going even deeper. And from what I'm seeing, then I suspect that this will be a big start toward that and potentially toward a good bit else as well. It's not only a good start, but a needed one.

So, Good for Mr. O'Neill, the Swift Boat Vets and their associates. Very well done to these men. Good for them. It really is quite impressive.

And well done to the majority of Vietnam Vets as well. For one thing after another over the past 30 years, probably too many to list and most unknown, ordinary and extraordinary, including building the memorial, holding a parade, providing one objective study of portions of the war after another, and for the majority having stayed the course and done well in their lives. . . And the same for countless Vietnamese from the former Republic of Vietnam who have done the same. All under much less than ideal circumstances and treated with indifference over the decades after being treated shabbily before.

As for Kerry, I certainly won't say anything such as 'good for him', but I will say that this may be the first real self-less service to the nation that he’s ever provided, even if unintentionally. But the real credit goes to Mr. O'Neill and the Swift Boat Vets on this for not allowing the opportunity to pass.

So for all of them and all of you guys: Sierra Hotel -- Brazo Zulu.
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Paul

[LimaCharlie]

A real hero and my hero! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you.
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I was going to become an anarchist, but they had too many rules.

[richard dickinson]

I have no clue whom this individual "thinks" he is, but from all appearances there is certainly a void when it come to facing the truth

[Paul]

"I have no clue whom this individual 'thinks' he is, but from all appearances there is certainly a void when it come to facing the truth" {richard dickinson}

Just curious. Who?
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Paul