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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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 Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 7:54 pm Post subject: 13 Mar incident - mortar/AK-47 fire |
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| Quote: | The Swift Boat Veterans, including Mr. Odell, say there was no enemy fire, but Mr. Alexander said after making the movie and talking with crewmates Mike Medeiros, Del Sandusky and David Alston, he believes there was enemy fire.
"Mike described the mortar rounds that were going over the top of the 94, and David and Del described the sound effects — specifically down to what kind of machine gun it was — the AK-47," Mr. Alexander said. "Their description is so specific they're not mistaken." http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040825-125217-7993r.htm
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Just read this and wondered at the credulity of Mr. Alexander. Because they can describe the sounds made by an AK-47, it means they heard them after PCF-3 was disabled.
No one disputes that they would know what AK-47 fire sounded like. The question is did they receive such fire after PCF-3 was hit.
I may be able to describe what an AK-47 sounds like, but because I do so in describing what happened when I walked out to my car this morning does not mean I was shot at.
And mortars - were the VC firing mortars at themselves? The PCFs had mortars, did they not? Wasn't it more likely these rounds, if they happened, were suppression fire? When you have a river that is 75 yards wide, with trees right up to the banks, do you fire mortars at a target 10 yards away? Will a mortar round even arm that close? Aren't you in real danger of, say, getting a sliver of shrapnel in your arm from your own round? |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: 13 Mar incident - mortar/AK-47 fire |
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| jrsdad wrote: | | When you have a river that is 75 yards wide, with trees right up to the banks, do you fire mortars at a target 10 yards away? Will a mortar round even arm that close? Aren't you in real danger of, say, getting a sliver of shrapnel in your arm from your own round? |
Being an old mortar man I can address the behavior of the 81mm mortar which I have read is what the Swifties carried. But then I didn't serve with them so I may be wrong.  Bursting radius (the radius at which 50 per cent of exposed individuals would be hit) of the 81mm round is 25 yards. So yes if you fired at a target within 10 yards you would have better than a 50/50 chance of hitting yourself.  Mortars by definition are high angle of fire weapons. i.e. they are intended to be fired at a vertical angle of 45 degrees or higher. (Okay for you purest 800 mils or greater) It wouldn't be very intelligent to do so, but is possible to intentionally fire the 81 round completely vertical which, assuming no strong winds, means in would land right back on top of the gun. Most 81 rounds are armed by an inertial mechanism. That just means that the acceleration of the round out of the tube causes a couple of spring loaded pins to move. Arming distance is usually not a question since the mortar round travels through a high arching trajectory. (It might be an issue if you were trying to hit a low flying aircraft.  )
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John Gault
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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First they say heavy automatic weapon and small arms fire, then rockets and now mortars!! What's next....straffing???? How did anybody survive!!!  |
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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | First they say heavy automatic weapon and small arms fire, then rockets and now mortars!! What's next....straffing???? How did anybody survive!!! |
The best account I read said something like "through a hail of artillery." |
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gkdechow
Ensign
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 67
Location: Kansas City
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the question that Kerry's crew were answering was "were you receiving fire" and the question should have been "were you still receiving fire after Kerry fled (or at lease "took a little cruise" 3 miles down river), finally figured one of the people on the boat had fallen off and went the three miles back to pick him up?"
I can't believe that all of these guys are willing to outright "LIE" for this arrogant self serving SOB. It's, once again, dependent on what the difination of "is" is |
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84rules
Ensign
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| jrsdad wrote: | | Quote: | | First they say heavy automatic weapon and small arms fire, then rockets and now mortars!! What's next....straffing???? How did anybody survive!!! |
The best account I read said something like "through a hail of artillery." |
And yet, according to the after-action reports available over on johnkerry.com, the only boat that suffered any damage was PCF-3, from the mine detonation.
Don't forget that those same after-action reports state that all five boats were taking small arms fire for the next 5000 meters. The VC/NVA must have been firing up into sky if they all managed to miss 50 foot long targets at a range of less than 75 yards and the crews on deck could still identify them by the sound they made.
I wasn't there, but it seems to me that there should have been hundreds of shotholes on all five boats yet not a single one was reported.
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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| gkdechow wrote: | Maybe the question that Kerry's crew were answering was "were you receiving fire" and the question should have been "were you still receiving fire after Kerry fled (or at lease "took a little cruise" 3 miles down river), finally figured one of the people on the boat had fallen off and went the three miles back to pick him up?"
I can't believe that all of these guys are willing to outright "LIE" for this arrogant self serving SOB. It's, once again, dependent on what the difination of "is" is |
I agree. The press is definitely not answering the correct questions.
1. How much time passed between the detonation under 3, the "detonation" under 94, and recovering Rassmann?
2. How long did the enemy fire persist after the mine blast? (Ask separately; I think you would get widely different answers)
3. Were they shooting at Thurlow in the water?
4. Were there mortar explosiions in the water?
5. How long did it take to get 3 set for towing and underway? From the time of mine blast.
Here is something I just wrote for a NG:
I have not maligned their service. I question their recollections, which is not the same thing. This is something liberals just don't get. They are so used to attacking the person making the statements that they ignore the statements themselves. Then, when someone else attacks statements, they assume that they are attacking the people as they would do.
I don't have a problem with any of the above except Alston. He has been
taken out of communication for the last two weeks because it was evident
that he had "misstated" some things in his previous stories and his DNC
speech. It is evident from the records and his interviews that he was only
on PCF-94 under Kerry for about a week. Yet he reported in one interview that he was with Kerry during the 28 February 1969 Silver Star action (he wasn't; Fred Short had replaced him in the gun tub, as Alston was recovering from wounds from a 29 January action under LTJG Peck), that he had been in "many firefights" with Kerry (records show only one or two he could have participated in) and that he saw Kerry's "blood on the deck", when Kerry was never injured other than a non-bleeding bruise when Alston was aboard (assuming, which is still in question, that Alston was with Kerry 13 March 1969).
I believe there may be some personal interests being protected (all men on the boat received commendations in the Silver Star incident, when the crews of the other boats did not, and some are being paid by Kerry to accompany him), but for the most part I believe that Kerry's "band of brothers" is sincere in their statements. I think they are wrong. The physical evidence backs up the SBVFT. The documentary evidence, all based upon reports Kerry himself wrote, is unreliable. |
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eliptak
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Treasure Island, FL
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:30 am Post subject: Alston's sevice with Kerry |
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If David Alston was wounded on 1/29, and from the scar on the back of his head it looked like a bad one, and Kerry didn't take over the boat until after than action, early February, COULD ALSTON EVER HAVE SERVED WITH KERRY FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME?
From 1/29 when Alston was wounded until Kerry left country, 3/17, thats not quite seven weeks. Was Alston definitely there on the 3/12 Bronze Star operation?
In the army we had something called a morning report where everyone in the unit was accounted for, e.g. present for duty, light duty, etc., etc. Does the navy have something similar? This type of information should be avialble with a Freedom of Information Request. It might be able to lay out exactly who was where on what days.
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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Alston's sevice with Kerry |
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| eliptak wrote: | If David Alston was wounded on 1/29, and from the scar on the back of his head it looked like a bad one, and Kerry didn't take over the boat until after than action, early February, COULD ALSTON EVER HAVE SERVED WITH KERRY FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME?
From 1/29 when Alston was wounded until Kerry left country, 3/17, thats not quite seven weeks. Was Alston definitely there on the 3/12 Bronze Star operation? |
Bandit has done a heroic job on the Alston issue, but without his med records it is not a done deal. Alston claims his head wound was a cut over his eye (which *might* not have been visible in a March crew picture with Kerry). He claims his growth on the back of his head is a skin condition unrelated to his wound. Bandit points out that Alston's mother said she saw his wound on a grainy TV set during the DNC, which argues against it being a minor scar over his eye.
That said, I don't know that we can trumpet this as a slam dunk. If it can be shown that his injury was to the back of the head then he is through. The pictures (including a different Alston-Kerry crew picture in Kerry's office) were from before 29 January. The massive trauma would have precluded him being reassigned so quickly.
The key here is the other PCF-94 crew. They surely know - and they are not saying one way or another, to my knowledge. Why? Why aren't they saying, "Yes, Alston was there from ___ to ___." perhaps they know he wasn't, and know that they will be contradicting him and the skipper if they tell the truth. If they lie, and someone gets the records, the house of cards falls down.
This is undoubtedly one reason they won't let them debate the Swiftees. The SBVFT know the questions to ask, unlike the cooperative MSM.
If Alston can be shown definitely never to have served under Kerry, it blows the entire "band of brothers" out of the water, and the MSM will have to move in like the sharks they are. Kerry would be toast - his entire campaign shown to be a lie. ANY proof that Kerry or his BoB have lied on the campaign and it is over. This isn't fog-of-war memories, this is deliberate dissembling. |
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mass55th
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Rome, New York
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:49 am Post subject: Rassman's Actions after he was pulled out of the river |
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| One thing I have been wondering about is what happened to Jim Rassman after he was pulled out of the water? I know that the injured men from PCF3 were evacuated to a Coast Guard Cutter, and I've read that John Kerry left his boat and hopped a ride to the Cutter for medical treatment of his alleged injuries. Did Rassman end up going to the Cutter with Kerry or did he stay on PCF94 as it towed PCF3 back home? |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Rassman's Actions after he was pulled out of the river |
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| mass55th wrote: | | One thing I have been wondering about is what happened to Jim Rassman after he was pulled out of the water? I know that the injured men from PCF3 were evacuated to a Coast Guard Cutter, and I've read that John Kerry left his boat and hopped a ride to the Cutter for medical treatment of his alleged injuries. Did Rassman end up going to the Cutter with Kerry or did he stay on PCF94 as it towed PCF3 back home? |
Someone wrote on there - 7 WIA. So that's the six on the 3 boat. And . . . Kerry. Seven. |
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 10:11 pm Post subject: 13 Mar Incident... |
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| mass55th wrote: | | One thing I have been wondering about is what happened to Jim Rassman after he was pulled out of the water? |
Recall also the record indicates that Rassmann was not injured before the mine exploded under the 3 Boat.
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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Tom --
This Rassmann quote is a beauty! I hadn't seen it before. Tying it with the 1 1/2 hours the rescue took, we have the most miraculous enemy encounter of the war. |
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baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:35 am Post subject: |
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I have corresponded with a Swift boat crewmate who was there on 13 Mar 69 and he says he thinks Alston was there, but he doesn't recall for sure. Fred Short told Byron York at NRO that he came onboard on his birthday, 18 Feb 69, and his last day on the 94 boat was 4 Mar 69. That leaves a maximum of nine days that Alston could have served with Kerry. So he could have been there on the 13th.
Alston was medevaced to the Bin Thuy hospital on 29 Jan 69, so I seriously doubt his story about a scratch over his eye. His injury report was on the Kerry website, but it was subsequently removed. However, copies do exist on the Internet and I have viewed them.
I don't think Kerry's boat fled the scene. According to witness reports, they were going "full speed" to get out of the canal. Kerry's boat was on the starboard side of the canal in the lead. The 3 boat was on the port in the lead. When she hit the mine, the two boats behind her would have been forced to throttle down quickly. The boat following Kerry would have been behind the mine explosion and would have reacted by throttling down.
Kerry's boat kept going at full speed for a while but then did a 180 and came back to the scene. There was only one mine. Look at the handwritten notes in the upper right hand corner of the AAR. Rassmann was on Kerry's boat (per Thurlow and others) and fell off at some point after the mine explosion.
I seriously doubt Kerry's boat went 5000 metres (not the French spelling of meters, a tipoff that Kerry wrote the AAR) before returning.
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: 13 Mar... |
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| jrsdad wrote: | | ...Rassmann quote is a beauty!... |
Thx, and here's a little more detail from a different source. We all need to look at maps, topographical charts, river depths, currents, foliage density, etc.
Here's another tidbit that needs to be vetted.
Finally, here's a different version from Kerry.
This is a little short of the "5,000 meters (or was it "metres") of fire" claimed in one of Kerry's descriptions. As posted elsewhere in this web site, Rassmann told one of his Green Beret Special Forces buddies who spoke out, "zip it." http://www.jenmartinez.com/mt/archives/001193.php#001193#more
Additionally, now we know why most of the rest of his buddies haven't rushed to his side. (Edited to include China Daily and Seattle Times quotes and a link to Major Mark Smith's comment)
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Last edited by Tom Poole on Sun Sep 05, 2004 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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