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John Gault
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 35
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 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "Anytime you are blown out of the water like that, they always follow that up with small arms fire," he said. |
No mention of intense AW fire, rockets or mortars.
| Quote: | "Lambert's news account describes photographs of bullet holes in the craft and he singles out a specific one as having occurred the day before. He has a number of other photographs showing battle damage.
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Misleading in that nowhere does Lambert say or even infer that the "battle damage" photos are from that day.
| Quote: | Sounds forensic to me David, wonder what we'd learn from a good examination of those?
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What would you learn? That unlike in Hollywood, where bullets bounce off everything and bad guys with AWs can't hit the broad side of a barn door, in the real world they leave holes, man or machine. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| hanna wrote: | | Why is it that the Unit Citation does not mention anyone but Sandusky and Alston of that group as having earned a Bronze star in 1969? |
Which Unit Citation are we talking about? Where can this be found? Inquiring minds... 
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| jataylor11 wrote: | Navy Chief
Do you believe Dobbs? I suggest that you keep a tape recording of all your conversations with him. Confirm with him that you are taping the conversations --- but tape them. Keep copies of all of your e-mails.
Maybe Dobbs wants to develop his own book out of the SwiftVets and Kerrys fraud.
If Dobbs gives you anything to sign --- see a lawyer --- it will be worth the money --- Ginsberg might be needing another client. |
he he he. I was impressed with two things Dobbs did in his article. (1) He did a graphic - that helped see the event in a better way (2) He did try to do some research and wrote the best (unbiased) piece found in all of the mainstream media at that time. I shredded his piece because his research was lacking and he didn't have a good understanding of operations or interpretation of the documentation. He cites another person who helped with the article but obviously that person didn't have much of a clue either; probably did a Internet search only.
Dobbs doesn't concern me though with misquotes and such. He is already in trouble for misquoting before. If he does it to an Active Duty Navy Chief - stand by for heavy rolls!
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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DavidFarrar
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject: Kerry blogger says there was no enemy fire |
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Okay, I have taken a good bit your your responses and responded to this guy. Below is his response at:
REI: Own your own words, David. You attacked Kerry's Bronze Star on the absence of enemy fire to any vessel in this group.
(edited to remove URL)
You disputed existence of documentary evidence to back it up.
Naval citations, spot reports, damage reports, and weekly reports are presented. You claim they're all Kerry's doing. The only military document obtained about any of the accusers, over his objection, impeached his claim of no enemy fire. Claims that Kerry gamed the system on every single report and recommendation for citation are not credible, according to Foster Wright, who served as executive officer in Coastal Division 13.
"You don't get to request a Purple Heart, you don't get to write up your own Bronze Star citation, you don't get to write up your citation for your Silver Star," Wright said. "That's done by other people. For this to be questioned is ludicrous."
Wright "saw firsthand how the administrative process worked in Vietnam because of his executive officer post in Coastal Division 13.
"I saw how these things went up the line," Wright said of the award citations. "You can't sit down and write your own citations. It's just not done."
Wright also cast doubt on the influence of the after-action reports that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claim are the basis for Kerry's medal citations.
"In it is a very brief description of what happened," he said. "That would have been done either collectively or by the [officer in tactical command] of the operation. But there's no way that it would be extensive enough. You weren't going to be long-winded."
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200408%5CPOL20040825b.html
You asserted that some accusers, such as Thurlow and O'Dell, were eyewitnesses to Kerry's actions and dispute any heroism on his part. Rassmann and those aboard Kerry's boat affirm there was enemy fire but you dismiss their testimony as unreliable. Langhofer, who manned the machine gun aboard PCF 43 is located by the WashPost, and he "distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of enemy AK-47 assault rifles" coming from both sides of the river. Lambert, who trained PCF OIC's for this duty, comes forward and disputes Thurlow's account, and stands behind the official Navy account, which states there was enemy fire directed at Thurlow's boat, as shown in the Bronze Star citations for both Lambert (for rescuing Thurlow) and Thurlow(in which Lambert is listed as eyewitness). You claim Langhofer and Lambert have confused US return fire for enemy fire, or that their memories are wishful thinking.
You assert that the only way to truly resolve the Bronze Star issue is to look at forensic evidence of -what?- enemy fire. Damage report establishes enemy fire caused damage to vessels, and Lambert produces photographs.
You just can't own your own words. You make a demand, then when it's met, you disavow it. This is pathetic. You get nowhere before a judge or a jury with this foolishness.
*******************************************************
I can't help but think this guy is working for the Kerry campaign, but, of course, I have no way of knowing for sure. I would, again, appreciate any detailed response from you guys who know more about this than I do. Thanks in advance.
ex animo
davidfarrar |
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xcorpsman-usn
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Around Tuscaloosa Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| jataylor11 wrote: | Navy Chief
Do you believe Dobbs? I suggest that you keep a tape recording of all your conversations with him. Confirm with him that you are taping the conversations --- but tape them. Keep copies of all of your e-mails.
Maybe Dobbs wants to develop his own book out of the SwiftVets and Kerrys fraud.
If Dobbs gives you anything to sign --- see a lawyer --- it will be worth the money --- Ginsberg might be needing another client. |
Like "harm" would say"watch your six" 
_________________
US Navy Corpsman (HM2) 1958 to 1966
"vericity is the heart of morality"
(Thomas H. Huxley) |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry blogger says there was no enemy fire |
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| DavidFarrar wrote: | Okay, I have taken a good bit your your responses and responded to this guy. Below is his response at:
REI: Own your own words, David. You attacked Kerry's Bronze Star on the absence of enemy fire to any vessel in this group.
(edited to remove URL)
You disputed existence of documentary evidence to back it up.
Naval citations, spot reports, damage reports, and weekly reports are presented. You claim they're all Kerry's doing. The only military document obtained about any of the accusers, over his objection, impeached his claim of no enemy fire. Claims that Kerry gamed the system on every single report and recommendation for citation are not credible, according to Foster Wright, who served as executive officer in Coastal Division 13.
"You don't get to request a Purple Heart, you don't get to write up your own Bronze Star citation, you don't get to write up your citation for your Silver Star," Wright said. "That's done by other people. For this to be questioned is ludicrous."
Wright "saw firsthand how the administrative process worked in Vietnam because of his executive officer post in Coastal Division 13.
"I saw how these things went up the line," Wright said of the award citations. "You can't sit down and write your own citations. It's just not done."
Wright also cast doubt on the influence of the after-action reports that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth claim are the basis for Kerry's medal citations.
"In it is a very brief description of what happened," he said. "That would have been done either collectively or by the [officer in tactical command] of the operation. But there's no way that it would be extensive enough. You weren't going to be long-winded."
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200408%5CPOL20040825b.html
You asserted that some accusers, such as Thurlow and O'Dell, were eyewitnesses to Kerry's actions and dispute any heroism on his part. Rassmann and those aboard Kerry's boat affirm there was enemy fire but you dismiss their testimony as unreliable. Langhofer, who manned the machine gun aboard PCF 43 is located by the WashPost, and he "distinctly remembered the "clack, clack, clack" of enemy AK-47 assault rifles" coming from both sides of the river. Lambert, who trained PCF OIC's for this duty, comes forward and disputes Thurlow's account, and stands behind the official Navy account, which states there was enemy fire directed at Thurlow's boat, as shown in the Bronze Star citations for both Lambert (for rescuing Thurlow) and Thurlow(in which Lambert is listed as eyewitness). You claim Langhofer and Lambert have confused US return fire for enemy fire, or that their memories are wishful thinking.
You assert that the only way to truly resolve the Bronze Star issue is to look at forensic evidence of -what?- enemy fire. Damage report establishes enemy fire caused damage to vessels, and Lambert produces photographs.
You just can't own your own words. You make a demand, then when it's met, you disavow it. This is pathetic. You get nowhere before a judge or a jury with this foolishness.
*******************************************************
I can't help but think this guy is working for the Kerry campaign, but, of course, I have no way of knowing for sure. I would, again, appreciate any detailed response from you guys who know more about this than I do. Thanks in advance.
ex animo
davidfarrar |
Here we go again. I'll explain this again for the slower students in the class
| Quote: | | Naval citations, spot reports, damage reports, and weekly reports are presented. You claim they're all Kerry's doing. |
Sequence of messages:
(1) Action occurrs
(2) After-Action Report written (Market Time Spot Report 13/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1) 194-Zumwalt, .5-Hoffman .4-Longsdale .4-Elliot /1 - Element number assigned to Elliot's command (swift boat). This was Kerry for 13 Mar 69. Also Originating line at bottom of every message sent via teletype: TOR 140125Z/RD/KJW (Time of release: DTG) (RD - radio op opsign) (KJW - message originator - RTTY designator - same thing - this was Kerry's opsign on all messages) DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH CALLSIGN "BOSTON STRANGLER" these are two totally separate things). Those who understand message traffic like I do - been doing it for 20 years, know that the person who wrote the report must be held accountable for its contents: "The facts as they are known to me". Kerry's testimony 1971, "According to the testimony , which is available in the Congressional Record, Sen. Symington asked Kerry, "Mr. Kerry, from your experience in Vietnam do you think it is possible for the President or Congress to get accurate and undistorted information through official military channels.[?]"
Kerry responded, "I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission; and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.
Kerry writes in WIA section of message: "Heavy shrapnel wound left buttock and contusion right forearm" - really? So, rice in the butt counts as Heavy shrapnel wound? Now look at perscasrep and what the doc puts out.
(3) Personnel Casualty Report - Kerry is seen on USGC SPENCER by medical doc. First time mentioned a mine exploded close aboard PCF-94. LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94" - Here Kerry tells the medical officer how he got his wounds. Note how he failed to mention a mine detonating close aboard PCF-94 in spot report. He states "two other mine explosions observed" after he went 3.1 miles downriver. The only witnesses to this would be his crew as ALL other boats stayed in area near PCF-3. The two other mine explosions did not happen anywhere near PCF-3 therefore none of the witnesses saw other mines exploding. That's because Kerry wrote OBSERVED. Anytime you use OBSERVED it is ambigious - left to the perception of the writer. NOTE HERE: IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AN INTELLECTUAL. LOOK AT THE SPOT REPORT AND TELL ME WHO THIS REPORT REVOLVES AROUND. ALL ACTION AND OBSERVATIONS ARE FROM PCF-94. EVEN THE UNITS INVOLVED IN OPERATION (4) format line: PCFS 94, 51, 23, 43, 3, MSF A404 DET, UDT DET 12, RF/PF CAI NUOC. Something wrong with this picture? The boats are not in numerical order as standard formatting requires. The mines exploding require an exact location on the map to be denoted. At least approximate. Our boats were running up and down the river! Mines are hazardous to navigation to say the least - YOU DOCUMENT WHERE THEY ARE!
(4) PCF-94 CASREP - ship incapable of performing Market Time Patrol due to damage. Why was it incapable: Blown out windows? (this happened the day before yet Kerry rode the boat out anyway) - NO, not this. VRC-46 Radio and all remote units pilot house inop? (VRC-46 was primary comms net, however a backup radio was available and used on this mission) - NO, not this. AC wiring shorted out? (no AC, sucks but not a mission stopper) - NO, not this. ONAN Genator inop? (safety issue) - possible but not by itself. Steerage control after helm inop? (another safety issue and ship control) - possible. Starboard bilge pump broken? (safety issue) - possible but not by itself. Screws curled and chipped? (ship control issue - loss of maximum speed available. Also makes boat louder) - possible but not what degree curled given. If seriously curled than it's a show stopper. Radar gear box frozen? (safety issue - mission issue) - probable because boat will not operate at night without radar. Also, cannot see where bad guys on water are. Main engines experienced RPM drop? (safety, control, mission issue) - probable but degree of RPM loss not stated. Add it all up and the boat needs repairs. The estimated time to repair it was 4 days. Repairs were going to happen at An Thoi where USS KRISHNA was at that time. NOTE: NO HULL DAMAGE STATED WHATSOEVER! No bullet holes. No crush damage from a mine. No shrapnel shredding the aluminum hull.
(5) Bronze Star Recommendation by Elliot 23 Mar 69. Elliot was nowhere near action that day. He had to rely on spot report. Recommendation was submitted by SANDUSKY as eyewitness to events. Sandusky is first to put in writing that "Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard PCF-94, knocking 1st LT Rassman into the water and wounding LTJG Kerry in the right arm...." Ten days after the action, the story is put forth by Kerry's second in charge, Sandusky (who was not a good witness to the events because he was driving the boat at full speed when this all went down. He was inside the pilot house and had a terrible view of any lattoral angles to the action. Especially since they were 3.1 miles downriver before coming back to the action. The proper eyewitness would have been gunner in Mount 51 with a 360 degree view. But Sandusky was the senior enlisted man and Kerry's right arm (no pun intended).
RECAP: (1) action occurrs (2) Kerry writes spot report (3) Kerry's personal casualty report sent (4) Kerry's PCF-94 damage report sent (5) BS recommendation drawn up and sent up chain.
GET A CLUE PLEASE?
Awards are not given before Reports are generated. Swift Boat Commanders hand wrote their reports and turned them in to be sent by radio personnel. KERRY ALREADY TOLD YOU THIS! The reports went up the chain of command. A well written report was a shoe-in for the medal. Did the chain of command ask questions? Of course! Now look at the Command History for Coastal Division 11. This is Elliot's report by day of what his command did. He required all swift boats to submit their actions for the input. This document is a requirement by big Navy. I don't expect non-navy to understand this but it is a time-honored tradition and requirement to do so since the Wooden Navy. Note the lack of any other mines for 13 Mar 69? Note the lack of Heavy Automatic Weapons? Note that small arms during the operation was directed at units? The operation lasted all day - remember the previous firefights up the canal? Elliot would not refute the eyewitness statements in the award write ups unless he had evidence contrary to the statements. Kerry's report went from his hands, to the ops boss' hands, to the radio personnel hands, to the airwaves (message sent) to Elliots inbox, to Hoffman's inbox, to Zumwalt's inbox. None of the other swift boats would have known that Kerry's report, coupled with Sandusky's recommenation for BS, or his medical report for Purple Heart even were being looked at by higher authority. Higher authority had only the documents initiated by Kerry, Sandusky, and medical officer to go by. Of course, they signed off on the awards - they weren't there. They didn't write the reports.
CONCLUSION: The documentation has been wrongly identified as supporting Kerry's case. You can't support your own case "in court" when you are the author of said documentation. To suggest otherwise is delusional and dishonest. Both words seem to be synomomous with Kerry.
And just for fun because I can't hold it in any longer. We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. It don't look good for your boy Kerry. I CAN BARELY HOLD IN MY JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You shouldn't have messed with the Brown Water Navy and this Navy Chief 
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Chief,
You've got What????? Oh! My God. PM me please!
Tom
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Nutso
PO3
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 271
Location: Minnesota
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| To me the bottom line is he got a nick on the hand requiring a band-aid to cover it. Real men do not turn a nick into a purple heart. Kerry was already trying to find a way out as fast as he could because he was and is a chicken. |
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