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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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 Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Putt4eagle wrote: | Can someone tell me how long it would take one of these boats at full speed to go 5000m or 3.1 miles down river and then return. It has been posted earlier in this thread that it would take 10 minutes. That seems a bit short to me but what do I know.
I think it is a relative point because it apprears to me as if JK bugged out leaving his fellow vets in what he called a hot zone. That in itself doesn't sound very 'Bronze Star worthy'. But beyond that it seems, and by his own admission, that he only return after he realized MSF Rassman was in the water. Although he tells a different story it also appears as if he only returned AFTER whatever fire there may have been coming from the banks had ended.
My gut is telling me that his return to the area was due to some type of self-preservation. I would imagine that his CO would not be too happy had he returned to base without a MSF advisor that left in his care. Especially since he bolted the area when the heat was on.
Anyway, how long would it take to get 3.1 miles down river, turn and come back?
Thanks |
If Kerry's boat was going a full 30 kts the time would have been 7-10 mins one way for 3.1 miles. But Kerry's boat had been damaged with RPM loss and curled screws. A full 30 kts was not likely. I'm not even sure Kerry went the full 3.1 miles downriver - that would have been ludicrous. One of the largest battles of all battle in Vietnam.
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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Putt4eagle
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your reply.
According to the document linked by this site, that I beleive is called an 'after action report' and I also beleive was authored by Kerry (I could be wrong) says, "observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued FOZNABOUT (?) 5000 meters." From what I believe that to mean is that he went down river for 3.1 miles. Am I wrong? That is what some of the media analysis have indicated anyway.
I appreciate you help as I try to understand the story as it is supported by the documents. It certainly doesn't seem to support JKs stories (numerous) that have been told since.
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Thanks to all our brave Vets. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Putt4eagle wrote: | Thank you for your reply.
According to the document linked by this site, that I beleive is called an 'after action report' and I also beleive was authored by Kerry (I could be wrong) says, "observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued FOZNABOUT (?) 5000 meters." From what I believe that to mean is that he went down river for 3.1 miles. Am I wrong? That is what some of the media analysis have indicated anyway.
I appreciate you help as I try to understand the story as it is supported by the documents. It certainly doesn't seem to support JKs stories (numerous) that have been told since. |
Something I wrote in a different post. If this helps understand some.
Sequence of messages:
(1) Action occurrs
(2) After-Action Report written (Market Time Spot Report 13/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1) 194-Zumwalt, .5-Hoffman .4-Longsdale .4-Elliot /1 - Element number assigned to Elliot's command (swift boat). This was Kerry for 13 Mar 69. Also Originating line at bottom of every message sent via teletype: TOR 140125Z/RD/KJW (Time of release: DTG) (RD - radio op opsign) (KJW - message originator - RTTY designator - same thing - this was Kerry's opsign on all messages) DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH CALLSIGN "BOSTON STRANGLER" these are two totally separate things). Those who understand message traffic like I do - been doing it for 20 years, know that the person who wrote the report must be held accountable for its contents: "The facts as they are known to me". Kerry's testimony 1971, "According to the testimony , which is available in the Congressional Record, Sen. Symington asked Kerry, "Mr. Kerry, from your experience in Vietnam do you think it is possible for the President or Congress to get accurate and undistorted information through official military channels.[?]"
Kerry responded, "I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission; and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.
Kerry writes in WIA section of message: "Heavy shrapnel wound left buttock and contusion right forearm" - really? So, rice in the butt counts as Heavy shrapnel wound? Now look at perscasrep and what the doc puts out.
(3) Personnel Casualty Report - Kerry is seen on USGC SPENCER by medical doc. First time mentioned a mine exploded close aboard PCF-94. LTJG Kerry suffered shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close aboard PCF-94" - Here Kerry tells the medical officer how he got his wounds. Note how he failed to mention a mine detonating close aboard PCF-94 in spot report. He states "two other mine explosions observed" after he went 3.1 miles downriver. The only witnesses to this would be his crew as ALL other boats stayed in area near PCF-3. The two other mine explosions did not happen anywhere near PCF-3 therefore none of the witnesses saw other mines exploding. That's because Kerry wrote OBSERVED. Anytime you use OBSERVED it is ambigious - left to the perception of the writer. NOTE HERE: IF YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AN INTELLECTUAL. LOOK AT THE SPOT REPORT AND TELL ME WHO THIS REPORT REVOLVES AROUND. ALL ACTION AND OBSERVATIONS ARE FROM PCF-94. EVEN THE UNITS INVOLVED IN OPERATION (4) format line: PCFS 94, 51, 23, 43, 3, MSF A404 DET, UDT DET 12, RF/PF CAI NUOC. Something wrong with this picture? The boats are not in numerical order as standard formatting requires. The mines exploding require an exact location on the map to be denoted. At least approximate. Our boats were running up and down the river! Mines are hazardous to navigation to say the least - YOU DOCUMENT WHERE THEY ARE!
(4) PCF-94 CASREP - ship incapable of performing Market Time Patrol due to damage. Why was it incapable: Blown out windows? (this happened the day before yet Kerry rode the boat out anyway) - NO, not this. VRC-46 Radio and all remote units pilot house inop? (VRC-46 was primary comms net, however a backup radio was available and used on this mission) - NO, not this. AC wiring shorted out? (no AC, sucks but not a mission stopper) - NO, not this. ONAN Genator inop? (safety issue) - possible but not by itself. Steerage control after helm inop? (another safety issue and ship control) - possible. Starboard bilge pump broken? (safety issue) - possible but not by itself. Screws curled and chipped? (ship control issue - loss of maximum speed available. Also makes boat louder) - possible but not what degree curled given. If seriously curled than it's a show stopper. Radar gear box frozen? (safety issue - mission issue) - probable because boat will not operate at night without radar. Also, cannot see where bad guys on water are. Main engines experienced RPM drop? (safety, control, mission issue) - probable but degree of RPM loss not stated. Add it all up and the boat needs repairs. The estimated time to repair it was 4 days. Repairs were going to happen at An Thoi where USS KRISHNA was at that time. NOTE: NO HULL DAMAGE STATED WHATSOEVER! No bullet holes. No crush damage from a mine. No shrapnel shredding the aluminum hull.
(5) Bronze Star Recommendation by Elliot 23 Mar 69. Elliot was nowhere near action that day. He had to rely on spot report. Recommendation was submitted by SANDUSKY as eyewitness to events. Sandusky is first to put in writing that "Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard PCF-94, knocking 1st LT Rassman into the water and wounding LTJG Kerry in the right arm...." Ten days after the action, the story is put forth by Kerry's second in charge, Sandusky (who was not a good witness to the events because he was driving the boat at full speed when this all went down. He was inside the pilot house and had a terrible view of any lattoral angles to the action. Especially since they were 3.1 miles downriver before coming back to the action. The proper eyewitness would have been gunner in Mount 51 with a 360 degree view. But Sandusky was the senior enlisted man and Kerry's right arm (no pun intended).
RECAP: (1) action occurrs (2) Kerry writes spot report (3) Kerry's personal casualty report sent (4) Kerry's PCF-94 damage report sent (5) BS recommendation drawn up and sent up chain.
GET A CLUE PLEASE?
Awards are not given before Reports are generated. Swift Boat Commanders hand wrote their reports and turned them in to be sent by radio personnel. KERRY ALREADY TOLD YOU THIS! The reports went up the chain of command. A well written report was a shoe-in for the medal. Did the chain of command ask questions? Of course! Now look at the Command History for Coastal Division 11. This is Elliot's report by day of what his command did. He required all swift boats to submit their actions for the input. This document is a requirement by big Navy. I don't expect non-navy to understand this but it is a time-honored tradition and requirement to do so since the Wooden Navy. Note the lack of any other mines for 13 Mar 69? Note the lack of Heavy Automatic Weapons? Note that small arms during the operation was directed at units? The operation lasted all day - remember the previous firefights up the canal? Elliot would not refute the eyewitness statements in the award write ups unless he had evidence contrary to the statements. Kerry's report went from his hands, to the ops boss' hands, to the radio personnel hands, to the airwaves (message sent) to Elliots inbox, to Hoffman's inbox, to Zumwalt's inbox. None of the other swift boats would have known that Kerry's report, coupled with Sandusky's recommenation for BS, or his medical report for Purple Heart even were being looked at by higher authority. Higher authority had only the documents initiated by Kerry, Sandusky, and medical officer to go by. Of course, they signed off on the awards - they weren't there. They didn't write the reports.
CONCLUSION: The documentation has been wrongly identified as supporting Kerry's case. You can't support your own case "in court" when you are the author of said documentation. To suggest otherwise is delusional and dishonest. Both words seem to be synomomous with Kerry.
And just for fun because I can't hold it in any longer. We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. It don't look good for your boy Kerry. I CAN BARELY HOLD IN MY JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And just for fun because I can't hold it in any longer. We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. It don't look good for your boy Kerry. I CAN BARELY HOLD IN MY JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
This is great news! When can we expect to see some copy? |
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Putt4eagle
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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NavyChief - Again, thank you for your reply. You have been very helpful as I formulate my informed opinion on this issue. I am attempting to get a grasp of the details something that is near impossible in 5 minute bites on cable news channels in which the hosts do much of the talking. (Chris Matthews is a pud. This guy is absolutley in fits over this. Read Ann Coulter on his latest.)
jrsdad - NavyChief's reply was taken from a reply in another thread. The links you seek may be found there.
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Thanks to all our brave Vets. |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. |
No Such Agency. Never heard of it. Nice to know Radio Research had the recorders running while they were playing pinochle....
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="NavyChief"] | Putt4eagle wrote: | Thank you for your reply.
According to the document linked by this site, that I beleive is called an 'after action report' and I also beleive was authored by Kerry (I could be wrong) says, "observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued FOZNABOUT (?) 5000 meters." From what I believe that to mean is that he went down river for 3.1 miles. Am I wrong? That is what some of the media analysis have indicated anyway.
(1) Action occurrs
(2) After-Action Report written (Market Time Spot Report 13/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1) 194-Zumwalt, .5-Hoffman .4-Longsdale .4-Elliot /1 - Element number assigned to Elliot's command (swift boat). This was Kerry for 13 Mar 69. Also Originating line at bottom of every message sent via teletype: TOR 140125Z/RD/KJW (Time of release: DTG) (RD - radio op opsign) (KJW - message originator - RTTY designator - same thing - this was Kerry's opsign on all messages) DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH |
Is there any way to simply go down that report and describe each line of code, and how to interpret the DTG, etc? Just so one can read every line of the report, and maybe similarly read the others. Did Kerry intend something by FOZNABOUT, or was that a typo? and so on, with regard to the codes and abbreviations. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | | Quote: | | We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. |
No Such Agency. Never heard of it. Nice to know Radio Research had the recorders running while they were playing pinochle.... |
So true... I guess I didn't work there for 12 years since it didn't exist 
I don't have the hot copy yet. I'm hoping to see them soon.
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote="sevry"] | NavyChief wrote: | | Putt4eagle wrote: | Thank you for your reply.
According to the document linked by this site, that I beleive is called an 'after action report' and I also beleive was authored by Kerry (I could be wrong) says, "observed at same time boats rcvd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued FOZNABOUT (?) 5000 meters." From what I believe that to mean is that he went down river for 3.1 miles. Am I wrong? That is what some of the media analysis have indicated anyway.
(1) Action occurrs
(2) After-Action Report written (Market Time Spot Report 13/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1) 194-Zumwalt, .5-Hoffman .4-Longsdale .4-Elliot /1 - Element number assigned to Elliot's command (swift boat). This was Kerry for 13 Mar 69. Also Originating line at bottom of every message sent via teletype: TOR 140125Z/RD/KJW (Time of release: DTG) (RD - radio op opsign) (KJW - message originator - RTTY designator - same thing - this was Kerry's opsign on all messages) DO NOT CONFUSE THIS WITH |
Is there any way to simply go down that report and describe each line of code, and how to interpret the DTG, etc? Just so one can read every line of the report, and maybe similarly read the others. Did Kerry intend something by FOZNABOUT, or was that a typo? and so on, with regard to the codes and abbreviations. |
I'll have something together for you later tonight. I've done most of it already but it was taken away from me and sent to legal due to my limited right of speech.
- instigator
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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Wing Wiper
Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| I believe FOZNABOUT should be "for about" . |
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Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:41 am Post subject: |
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[quote="NavyChief"] | Putt4eagle wrote: | Thank you for your reply.
[REALLY NICE ANALYSIS SNIPPED -- SEE ABOVE]
And just for fun because I can't hold it in any longer. We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. It don't look good for your boy Kerry. I CAN BARELY HOLD IN MY JOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Are these viewable somewhere yet?
_________________
Herb |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Ut-oh. You caught the eye of the Brass, chief! Quick, hide your left sleeve, maybe they'll mistake you for a civilian -- with really *big* forearms!
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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ArmyWife
Lieutenant
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Jack Mclaughlin wrote: | | Back to " no empty shell casings found on banks " my notes indicate Larry Thurlow, on one of his MSNBC appearances said that a special forces search immediately after the incident found no evidence of Viet Cong or enemy presence. |
Would that Special Forces search have been conducted by Rassmann's men? Hmmm... |
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efuseakay
Ensign
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | | cipher wrote: | | Quote: | | We now have the NSA radio intercepts for 13 March 1969. |
No Such Agency. Never heard of it. Nice to know Radio Research had the recorders running while they were playing pinochle.... |
So true... I guess I didn't work there for 12 years since it didn't exist
I don't have the hot copy yet. I'm hoping to see them soon.
- instigator |
Wow... if this can make it to the wires, it would be incredible... please keep us posted! |
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wbear
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2004 11:52 am Post subject: Robert E. Lambert Speaks |
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To ;ASPB
Alas, a story I can grasp. This probably comes closer to what happened that day. And , it is a far cry from Kerry's line. Swiftees need to convince those in the media who cannot understand that there is another side to a subject worth reporting. A reponderance of all that's been said about this incident would lead a "reasonable" person to conclude that Kerry's account is the farthest from the actual events. Never give up! |
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