SwiftVets.com

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Dems dat say; don't do. Dems dat do; don't say

-That's Bogey's Hollywood take on a truism from Ecclesiates in the Old Testament.

[d19thdoc]

I'm wondering if the deeply courteous Michael and LineGrunt had not previously arranged a "good cop - bad cop" ambush here. Probably not.

I have been around the block a lot on the subject of "Yes, but, atrocities were committed in Vietnam, weren't they." They then cite My Lai, a recent revelation in an Ohio newspaper, Bob Kerrey's disputed case, etc.

Since the anti-war activities of John Kerry are about to become a central issue in the campaign, thanks in no small part to SBVT, and since John Kerry's anti-war activities were justified on the basis of war crimes committed by one and all, I think it is time to warn everyone and forearm them on this subject.

Don't argue with people who recite war crimes claims. Whatever war crimes were committed in Vietnam are beside the point and not the issue, unless Kerry's characterization of those allegations was true.

The issue is, Kerry claimed that these activities were U.S policy, that they were known and condoned by all levels of command, that they were virtually the universal experience of all soldiers in Viet Nam. He also claimed that this kind of war had made drug addicts of 60 to 80% of us, that we were ticking time bombs addicted to violence about to explode on the civilian homeland, that mutiny and disobediance of orders was to be expected and was deserved by the government, and that the only solution was to implement, immediately and unilaterally, the proposals of the Vietnamese communists, with whom he had met privately, but not secretely, more than once.

Not one single case of the alleged war crimes "testimony" he relied upon (the "Winter Soldier Investigation") was ever proved, and no evidence for them was ever offered beyond the testimony of the men who made them, in all but a few cases not even corroborated by a second witness - and no convincing authentication of those witnesses was ever made.

Not one war crime that has been documented factually was ever mentioned by any witness at the WinterSoldier Investigation. All attempts by the NIS, on behalf of the Marine Corps, by journalists and by historians - including efforts ongoing today - have been unable to verify any of these allegations. The "witnesses" and their organizers have steadfastly refused to cooperate with any inquires. The only facts about that enterprise that have been established convincingly all discredit the witnesses.

War crimes in Vietnam are not the issue. Dragging them out is the default response of those who want to defend the left's activities in the 70's, and John Kerry's words and actions.

The issue is fabricated propaganda, generated to demoralize the American people and military in war time, for the specific stated benefit of the enemy with whom we were engaging in war at that time.

Over 400 American GIs were executed by the U.S. militray during World War II for war crimes. Over 200,000 French civilan casualties resulted from the allied invasion of France in 1944, beginning on D-Day.

Isn't it curious that all that happened in World War II is almost universally regarded as part of the most noble and heroic militray campaign in history. And whatever did happen in Vietnam is regarded quite differently by the same people. Could it be that the characterization of all of us as mentally deranged criminals, based on the crimes of a few, and the imagined crimes of the many, was deliberately concocted for some purpose other than the advancement of truth and justice?
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide"

[Me#1You#10]

Admin note:

Please reference our note in the following post:

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=48786#48786

[PO2]

It was a shock to me how deeply this whole matter has provoked me. After seven years of intensive therapy also, revisiting all of the horrors of Vietnam and "reprocessing" them (all of them perpetrated by the enemy, by the way, on us and on the Vietnamese civilian population - I was a medic and never fired my weapon) - it was a shock to discover that I had not really "recovered" emotionally. Why? Because one of the worst traumas of the entire experience did not happen in Vietnam -[/quote]

Welcome home doc. Statistically, the medics have had the worst time of all of us. Survivor guilt, inadequacy, etc. had hit them realy hard. My hat is off to you. You probably never said, when someone was yelling for a Corspman--Take two asperins and call me in the morning if it is no better.

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Duty. Honor. Country.
To me, more than just words.

[PO2]

[PO2]

[PO2]

[I B Squidly]

Bare with me milbuds and see if I get this out with any sense:

We often rafted out in South Korean ports. The ROK's had all these WWII surplus ships spiffed and shined better than the builders models. You could not help but notice that their version of NJP was not the 30/30 so familiar but beatings administered at morning quarters. They always impressed with their no-nonsense discipline and professionalism in every rate and rank (the ROCs likewise and the Japanese especially embarassed us with their seamanship [partiing with Japanese bubbleheads did not induce confidence in the 7th Fleet or its carrier groups]).

Before that I'ld encountered two diminutive ROKs stateside in a unversity bar challenged by 6 lunking, football squad, frat boys. Four of those Sigma Nus went to the hospital and none made the next week's game.

Before that I'ld heard that ROKs in 'Nam marked their perimeter with VC heads on cleaning rods. The upshot being that 'Charlie' didn't f**k with the ROKs. The efficacy of such behavior traces to the Bronze Age and made sense. I never knew the truth of it.

[Michael B. Smith]

[quote="d19thdoc"]I'm wondering if the deeply courteous Michael and LineGrunt had not previously arranged a "good cop - bad cop" ambush here. Probably not.<<<<<<


I beg your pardon Sir, and take issue with your accusation that I am in or was in any plot to set that poster up!

(Admin - removed personal information - see my note, below.)<<<

Interesting? apparently bombs can only be hurled one direction!

But whether or not it is important - quien sabe! For I am too great an advocate for Constitutional liberty to complain of its exercise by others – although I may feel it operation in my own person.

Have a great day!
Michael Berryman Smith
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Michael B. Smith

[Michael B. Smith]

Thank you Brother for being on the square with me!

And thank you for your service.

Sincerely & fraternally
Michael Berryman Smith
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Michael B. Smith

[DEL]

Michael,

You ask fair questions. My sons have ask just about the same things of me.

You have an internet connection. Go look!

Bear in mind during the war in Vietnam journalists were everywhere.
Film, photo,print journalist from all over the world. America's friends and foes alike. They had free access to the entire country of Vietnam. No censorship,no military handlers, no off limits. Go find the photos the stories the films of wide spread atrocities.

Close your eyes for a minute, imagine an America where strangers waited at airports to attack returning vets, where churches in which these vets sought solace shunned them, where the VFW the American Legion refused them membership and the federal government was forced to pass law insuring them the right to work. Why didn't we speak up?
Who would've listened?

[Michael B. Smith]

[quote="DEL"]Michael,

You ask fair questions. My sons have ask just about the same things of me.

You have an internet connection. Go look!<<

thank you - and yes I have been seeking information elsewhere.

I am trying my hardest to obtain and make an informed decision about something that has been either been told in a different light, or not talked about for the last 35 years.

I have said it before on this board and I will say it again - I am not voting Kerry - for reason far beyond this issue. That said - because the issue has come up - it has sparked an interest in me. Perhaps - the best thing to have done would have been to leave it alone.

I have tried to be honest and have no alterior motive beyond my simple questions. I post under my real name and YES - I try to be curtious - not to put any BS over anyone, but because being curtious is the right thing to do to anyone - especially you Viet Vets.

If'n my response (2 post back) seemed rude - I apologize to the board and to all you fine men and ladies present. But I will not be accused of doing something I had no part of.

Yall have said Kerry brought this issue up and yall will finish it. I think this is great - I think it should be aired. But when questions are asked by those of us who do not know - then there is no need to hurl bombs (not speaking to you directly).

I do find it odd that the email off the same that started this thread that I sent to Swift Boats vets not only hasn't been read - it hasn't even been opened as I have recieved no return reciept. I don't understand how we can talk about this issue if questions can't be answered?????

anyway - I do thank you for your service and your frankness in your response.

S&f
Michael Berryman Smith
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Michael B. Smith

[Hueygunner]

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

It's not unique to this board, hueygunner.

I have a yahoo mailing list of 1600+ and we have a lot of FNG's sign on to that and want instant answers - much of what they ask requires an encyclopedia to answer and nearly everything they ask has been asked before and answered many times. It's faster to ask than to read the archives.

Same thing with all the other boards and mailing lists that I own or help to moderate. It's the times, I think. People are too busy to research, and they want answers NOW, which comes off as demanding and self-important.

It's why we've tried to steer toward a Links Consolidation thread and an FAQ thread and tried to get people to read the book. The book is just as clear as spring-water, and it came from the people who were there at the same time, same place, same operating rules - almost every single one of them served right alongside John Kerry.

People who are looking for answers need to be steered to appropriate places to find the information, and they need to remember that if they're too busy to go read and search, everyone else is likewise busy, too, and probably doesn't have time to spoonfeed them. (And this is not aimed at just the originator of this post, but many participants, here.)

Research is tedious and very time-consuming and requires focus. I have neither since I came aboard as a moderator.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[Navy_Navy_Navy]