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George Elliott: Lt. Kerry was "above reproach"
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Real_Patriot
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 11:06 pm    Post subject: George Elliott: Lt. Kerry was "above reproach" Reply with quote

How clumsy a right-wing propagandist do you have to be, for even FOX NEWS to expose you?



On FOX News Channel's Hannity & Colmes, co-host Alan Colmes challenged the credibility of the Swift Boat Vets. Colmes noted that Swift Boat Vets leader O'Neill did not serve in Vietnam with Kerry; rather, as O'Neill told Colmes, "I actually took his boat over, but about two months after he [Kerry] left." Colmes also draws attention to the flip-flopping nature of the comments made about Kerry by several group members. Colmes questioned O'Neill who appeared on the show:

Here is what Grant Hubbard [sic], who's now part of your group, here's what he had to say back then about John Kerry. And he signed -- let's put it up on the screen -- a report on Kerry. He said on initiative, one of the top few. Cooperation, one of the top few. Personal behavior, one of the top few. Why would he say that then and now be supporting you now?

Colmes further probed:

Let me show you the report of George Elliott, who also graded John Kerry in Vietnam. Here's what was said. Here's what he said. "In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, Lieutenant Junior Grade Kerry was unsurpassed. LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach." That's a report of officer fitness from 1969 by George Elliott, who also graded Kerry. How do you account for that? Do you want to claim that everybody now is saying what you're saying? It's clearly not true.
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buzzsaw
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In listening to the press conference I heard only one of the swift vets that said anything even mildly derogratory about Kerry's performance during his activities in Vietnam.

The message I got from listening to those folks was that they were disturbed by Kerry's conduct after he left the theater. Their specific allegations as I heard them were that Kerry gave aid and comfort to the enemy through his antiwar activities after he returned to the States.
The impression that I was left with is that the swift boat vets are upset by Kerry's allegations that they violated the rules of war when conducting their operations.
The other point that seemed important to them was that Kerry should release his military medical records. It is my understanding that 3 purple hearts entitled you to a ticket home. The details about these purple hearts seem to be pertinent. Incidently I never have considered that we should say "won" when talking about a purple heart.
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Ex-Military Capitalist
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Good points. Reply with quote

Kerry should release his medical records.

Let's see the boo-boo band aid that got him a purple heart.

He served 4 months active, then retreated to the safety of the good 'ol US, on a technicality. Coward.

Then protested the war, with Hanoi Jane.

And lied about what he saw. Four months.

Four months. Coward.
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John Kerry got a bandaid for his boo-boo, and put himself in for a Purple Heart.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Let's see the boo-boo band aid that got him a purple heart. "

He's refusing to fully release his medical records for privacy concerns. Journalists and his personal doctor reviewed those files and read the original doctor's description of the surgery to remove the shrapnel. It wasn't big and it was only on his arm, but it was a battlefield injury. And it could have punctured a major artery.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He's refusing to fully release his medical records for privacy concerns.

I contend that unless he had multiple cases of gonorrhea or was treated for psychiatric disorders, any privacy concerns would by now be overshadowed by the fact that he's said he would release his full records twice in television interviews and he has not. He's not in a bridge tournament, he's running for President of the United States - it doesn't seem that he takes it very seriously.

If he wants to start getting some credibility back, he needs to release his service jacket, as he said he was going to. (Indeed, in the case of his Meet The Press interview a few weeks back, as he said he had ALREADY done. Another lie.)


Quote:
It wasn't big and it was only on his arm, but it was a battlefield injury. And it could have punctured a major artery.

You're being sarcastic, right?

A splinter 2-3mm in diameter stuck 3-4mm into the skin on his arm? I get deeper splinters while I garden.

Ordinarily, someone's medals are not for me to question. Though I am a vet, I was not ever in combat and it's not for me to question.

But here is someone who has made a political career - first of being an anti-war candidate, and now that patriotism is back in vogue, of being a "war hero."

He has been the one to make "You know, I was in Vietnam" a running joke about his own campaign.

He cannot apparently visit any locale or encounter any situation which does not for him, somehow call up memories of Vietnam.

If dozens of things that John F'n Kerry has said are provably untrue, does that not call EVERYTHING he has said into question?

If these hundreds of men who served with Kerry and saw none of the war crimes that he saw, and have questions about the activities which resulted in Mr. Kerry's awards, do these men not have the right to question them?
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I contend that unless he had multiple cases of gonorrhea or was treated for psychiatric disorders, any privacy concerns would by now be overshadowed by the fact that he's said he would release his full records twice in television interviews and he has not. He's not in a bridge tournament, he's running for President of the United States - it doesn't seem that he takes it very seriously.


The Bush campaign relied on the same approach: they allowed journalists to inspect the full medical records but nothing was copied or circulated among the public. They also had privacy concerns.

Quote:
If he wants to start getting some credibility back, he needs to release his service jacket, as he said he was going to. (Indeed, in the case of his Meet The Press interview a few weeks back, as he said he had ALREADY done. Another lie.)


I don't buy this. The transcript of the Russert interview is here:

http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4772030

The medical records have been released in a manner virtually identical to what the Bush campaign has done (inspected by journalists). All the rest are on his website. There are literally dozens of documents there. Nobody here has been able to say what, exactly, is missing from that website (besides the medical records, which were reviewed by journalists)

I stand behind my statement:
"It wasn't big and it was only on his arm, but it was a battlefield injury. And it could have punctured a major artery." Shrapnel hits are random and even 1mm on the carotid artery would kill a man.

Quote:
A splinter 2-3mm in diameter stuck 3-4mm into the skin on his arm? I get deeper splinters while I garden.


How do you know the sizes? Because those 19 journalists said that? Besides the fact that I haven't seen any credible source claiming that it was "2-3mm in diameter stuck 3-4 mm into the skin" you're denying that his medical records have been released while you supposedly quote from them in the same post!

Quote:
Ordinarily, someone's medals are not for me to question. Though I am a vet, I was not ever in combat and it's not for me to question.

But here is someone who has made a political career - first of being an anti-war candidate, and now that patriotism is back in vogue, of being a "war hero."

He has been the one to make "You know, I was in Vietnam" a running joke about his own campaign.

He cannot apparently visit any locale or encounter any situation which does not for him, somehow call up memories of Vietnam.

If dozens of things that John F'n Kerry has said are provably untrue, does that not call EVERYTHING he has said into question?

If these hundreds of men who served with Kerry and saw none of the war crimes that he saw, and have questions about the activities which resulted in Mr. Kerry's awards, do these men not have the right to question them?


None of the men who were there during the time he was injured have disputed his injuries. Are Kerry's "band of brothers" brainwashed or paid off or something? Their loyalty to him speaks volumes more than opponents who have only the slightest passing acquaintance with him, including the swift boat commander who took over two months later.

I haven't seen dozens of things that are provably untrue. Lots of accusations but nothing credible of substantive.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
The Bush campaign relied on the same approach: they allowed journalists to inspect the full medical records but nothing was copied or circulated among the public. They also had privacy concerns.


President Bush released 300 pages of documents to attendees of a press conference, including his medical records.


Quote:
Quote:
If he wants to start getting some credibility back, he needs to release his service jacket, as he said he was going to. (Indeed, in the case of his Meet The Press interview a few weeks back, as he said he had ALREADY done. Another lie.)


I don't buy this. The transcript of the Russert interview is here:

http://msnbc.msn.com/ID/4772030


Pardon me, I had my sources mixed up. He said in the Meet the Press interview that his service records would be made available at this headquarters where anyone could come in and inspect them.

When a reporter from the Boston Globe showed up the next day to view these "complete records," he was told that nothing more than had already been released would be released.

It was in a separate interview that John Kerry said that everything was up on his web site - which turned out to be false. His complete service record was NOT posted. The whole body of information on the Kerry site was not posted until some days after Kerry said it was already there, and further, it included activity reports for another Swift commander's boat!

The web site documents are missing his documentation (medical and activity reports) for the first PH. Activity reports for the other medals are conspicuously present.

Quote:

I stand behind my statement:
"It wasn't big and it was only on his arm, but it was a battlefield injury. And it could have punctured a major artery." Shrapnel hits are random and even 1mm on the carotid artery would kill a man.

Quote:
A splinter 2-3mm in diameter stuck 3-4mm into the skin on his arm? I get deeper splinters while I garden.


How do you know the sizes? Because those 19 journalists said that? Besides the fact that I haven't seen any credible source claiming that it was "2-3mm in diameter stuck 3-4 mm into the skin" you're denying that his medical records have been released while you supposedly quote from them in the same post!


The doctor who removed this particular shrapel was impressed by John Kerry enough to remember this injury. First of all, a couple of the other men from his unit told the doc that this was going to be the next JFK from Massachusetts. Secondly, the men all said that they'd received no enemy fire, but John Kerry told the doctor that his injury (the night before) was received through enemy fire.

So, instead of pulling out this teeny little splinter by himself, he left it in and went to the infirmary the next day to have it removed. I would imagine so that the doc would provide documentation that he had been treated for wounds sustained in enemy fire.

Kerry's CO and several others thought that the shrapnel appeared to be from one of our own M79's, not enemy rifles. Indeed, the men in the boat that night said that Kerry had shot one off and that it had richocheted off of some rocks on the shore, in near proximity.

The doctor can be read in his own words in the National Review Online:
http://nationalreview.com/york/york200405041626.asp

Quote:
Quote:
Ordinarily, someone's medals are not for me to question. Though I am a vet, I was not ever in combat and it's not for me to question.

But here is someone who has made a political career - first of being an anti-war candidate, and now that patriotism is back in vogue, of being a "war hero."

He has been the one to make "You know, I was in Vietnam" a running joke about his own campaign.

He cannot apparently visit any locale or encounter any situation which does not for him, somehow call up memories of Vietnam.

If dozens of things that John F'n Kerry has said are provably untrue, does that not call EVERYTHING he has said into question?

If these hundreds of men who served with Kerry and saw none of the war crimes that he saw, and have questions about the activities which resulted in Mr. Kerry's awards, do these men not have the right to question them?


None of the men who were there during the time he was injured have disputed his injuries.


Au contraire. Listen to the press release. Although it was a very small part of the eighty minutes, it was there.

Quote:
Are Kerry's "band of brothers" brainwashed or paid off or something? Their loyalty to him speaks volumes more than opponents who have only the slightest passing acquaintance with him, including the swift boat commander who took over two months later.


Kerry's "band of brothers?" The four or five who travel with him, everywhere? Who knows? I'll let them speak for themselves. Steven Gardner was on one of Kerry's boats, and he's part of SBVFT.

Quote:
I haven't seen dozens of things that are provably untrue. Lots of accusations but nothing credible of substantive.


You haven't heard Kerry say dozens of things that are provably untrue?

How about just a few:
-"We are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions."
-That 200,000 Vietnamese were annually murdered by the United States of America.
-(War crimes and atrocities) These crimes, Kerry said, were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."
-WRT same-sex marriages, Kerry says, "Vice President Cheney has the same position I do."
-How about his insistence that he did not attend a November 1971 meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, at which group members discussed the possibility of assassinating U.S. senators?
-How about Kerry's contention that he and Al Hubbard saw no more of each other after the week of April 18, 1971?
-How about his claim to be Irish?
-How about the lie he told about his vote in favor of the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq?
-His saying that he has long advocated all things good for our military?
-That he doesn't own SUV's - that his family has them?
-His claims of support from foreign leaders that he's met in restaurants in Manhattan?
-Bush wants to take away overtime pay from 8 million people
-Claiming that Bush has cut veteran's benefits?
-I threw my medals. I didn't throw my medals. I threw someone else's medals but I threw my ribbons.

Shall I go on with the list of Kerry's lies? And then get started on his waffles? Or is this enough to send you off to do some googling on your own?
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's quite a bit of material. However, after that photoshop affair (which is still reverberating in rightwing circles), it's hard to give much credibility to something someone says in a BBS about something someone else supposedly said God knows who knows when.

After Ann Coulter wrote in the National Review about killing leaders in the mideast and forcibly converting everyone there to Christianity, I've never given that publication much credibility. To have had her on their staff shows very poor judgment.

I know about those 300 documents released by Bush, but what's conspicuous are documents showing he was in Alabama when he said he was and that he even showed up for duty there. The media was awfully slack in letting him get away with that. Even his spokesman, Scott McClellan, agreed that those 300 pages still didn't provide any evidence that Bush showed up for Guard duty.
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Hesiod
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:29 pm    Post subject: "Free Fires Zones" Reply with quote

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Because participation in Free Fire Zones, and similar activities, are the ONLY war crimes Kerry said he personally witnessed, all the members of Swift Boaters for the Bush Campaign are claiming they never participated in them? I seem to recall that even John O'Neill admitted he participated in Free Fire Zones.

So what's the complaint? That Kerry repeated allegations made by others at the Winter Soldiers meeting in Detroit that he, at the time, had no reason to doubt?

They vetted the participants in that meeting thoroughly. Obviously, some fakers got through their screening process. But Kerry had no way of knowing that at the time.

Plus, the plausibility factor was pretty high after My Lai. You jokers act as though that never occurred.

As for him giving "aid and cofort to the enemy," well...anybody who even remotely questioned the war could be categorized that way. Unfortunately for you all, we live in a free society where the peaceful questioning of our Government is a GOOD thing. Cracking down on dissent would have given far greater aid an comfort to our enemies than anything John Kerry could or did do. Morover, even if John Kerry never said a ting, the My Lai massacre and other horror stories coming out of Vietnam would have done exactlky the same thing.

I long for the day when people who peacefully criticize their Government are not labeled as traitors. Quite frankly, the shrillness of the accusation (that's what "giving aid and comfort" means -- treason), proves that Kerry was right all along. That you have to resort to such ridiculous lies and distortions means that he was winning the argument and you were losing it.

People made allegations like that during WWII as well. But they were roundly ignored because everybody understood that the war was necessary and justified.

It's only when you are engaged in a stupid, pointless conflict like Vietnam or Iraq when the criticism gets traction, because people inherently know that the critics are right.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said, Hesiod. They are trying to deny that such atrocities occurred. Part of the problem is that the victims in this case were the enemy. This means conservatives have to deny the existence of these atrocities.

To quote George Orwell,

Quote:
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. For quite six years the English admirers of Hitler contrived not to learn of the existence of Dachau and Buchenwald.


The Toledo Blade just won a Pulitzer for a series on Tiger Force, a platoon operating in a free-fire zone. Army investigations confirmed massive civilian atrocities, including "ear necklaces."

Here's a blurb about the series:

Quote:
The Blade’s reporters found that an elite unit of American troops called the Tiger Force did terrible things in Vietnam in the late 1960s. They murdered innocent people in cold blood, some as they were begging for their lives. They tossed grenades into tunnels, where they knew elderly folks, women, and children were hiding. They cut off the ears of their victims and made necklaces of the grotesque souvenirs. In all, the Blade reported, the 45-member Tiger Force may have killed hundreds of unarmed civilians during a seven-month period in 1967.

"We were living day to day. We didn’t expect to live. Nobody out there with any brains expected to live," a former Tiger Force sergeant named William Doyle told the paper. "So you did any goddamn thing you felt like doing — especially to stay alive. The way to live is to kill because you don’t have to worry about anybody who’s dead."

The series, "Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths," concerns some of the most emotionally charged territory in American life, even today, some 37 years after those events took place. Vietnam was at the heart of a right-wing attempt to smear Senator John Kerry after he’d wrapped up the Democratic presidential nomination. Critics dug up testimony Kerry had given before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 about atrocities he’d heard his fellow veterans attest to — rapes, mutilations, torture, random killings, and the like (see "Sex, Lies, and Republicans," News and Features, February 20) — and held it up as evidence that Kerry was somehow unpatriotic. The Blade has shown that such horrors may have been commonplace — and that Kerry’s testimony spoke to something very dark and very true about the Vietnam War.


http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

Nobody wants to believe this can be true. But unlike Orwell's nationalists (for those who don't know what this means, think "hyper patriots") I won't look away when such activities occur in my country's name and I'll do what I can to oppose such wrongs. I love my country enough to want it to do the right thing.
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Jeremy Eaton
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navy (squared) wrote:
Quote:
How about just a few:
-"We are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions."
-That 200,000 Vietnamese were annually murdered by the United States of America.
-(War crimes and atrocities) These crimes, Kerry said, were "not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."


You will find that the reason I believe these things to NOT be lies will be found (in part) here:
Tiger Force: A New Report Uncovers Multiple Atrocities Committed By An Elite Platoon in 1967 Vietnam


The gentlemen that uncovered this were awarded a Pulitzer. If you think I am being misinformed by this source. I would appreciate your attempts to disabuse me of these notions.

I will get to the rest of your alleged lies, if you care to do this minimal task.
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eecee
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navy_Navy_Navy wrote:

President Bush released 300 pages of documents to attendees of a press conference, including his medical records.



Actually, GWB "released" hundreds of pages of documents that, according to CNN, only contain one statement about the year most people have questioned - May 1972-May 1973. That statement? "Not observed....."

GWB released the documents himself, just like Kerry did, without requesting DOD to directly release them to the public - think Mr. O'Neill should insist he do so?


Furthermore, he did not release his medical records. He made them available for inspection by reporters, just like Kerry did.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/13/elec04.prez.bush.texas.records/
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eecee
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: "Free Fires Zones" Reply with quote

Hesiod wrote:


I long for the day when people who peacefully criticize their Government are not labeled as traitors. Quite frankly, the shrillness of the accusation (that's what "giving aid and comfort" means -- treason), proves that Kerry was right all along. That you have to resort to such ridiculous lies and distortions means that he was winning the argument and you were losing it.



Good point.

I suppose all those who are so offended at Kerry's anitwar activities who belong to Vietnam Veterans of America will quit in protest. After all, he was a co-founder of that group, and surely they wouldn't want to support a traitor.

www.vva.org


And any of those Vietnam vets who have benefited from the legislation Kerry helped sponsor that affords them disability payments for Agent Orange-related diseases will want to turn those checks right back in.

>>>As a U.S. senator, Kerry has fought for years to help fellow veterans suffering from cancer, nerve and skin disorders and other diseases linked by medical science to chemical dioxins contained in Agent Orange. He was a chief sponsor of the 1991 legislation that now affords some 10,000 exposed veterans up to $2,300 a month for various disabilities. Kerry recently tried unsuccessfully to help Tommy (Trees) Forrest, who served on different boats but in the same combat area, to win benefits for cancers growing on his liver. "I personally observed the spraying of Agent Orange," Kerry wrote in a letter to Veterans Affairs on June 25, 2003. "I hereby testify with absolute certainty that Thomas G. Forrest and anyone else in that area of operations were definitely exposed to Agent Orange." On the same day, he wrote the same testimonial for one of his closest friends, Giles Whitcomb, a Naval Intelligence officer who served with Kerry in the delta and died last year of lymphoma. <<<<

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4410098/
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the Washington Post, this EXCELLENT article summarizing what Bush didn't release. It explains why the Bush website is virtually devoid of military records.

Many Gaps In Bush's Guard Records
Released Papers Do Not Document Ala. Service
By Dana Milbank and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, February 14, 2004; Page A01


Files released by the White House last night from President Bush's Vietnam War-era service in the National Guard show that the future president was an exemplary pilot whose military record contains numerous gaps in the last two years of his six-year commitment.



The White House, seeking to quell a revived controversy over Bush's Guard service, released hundreds of pages of records that were previously withheld. The documents include what the White House describes as all the non-medical elements of Bush's military personnel file, including performance evaluations, documentation of his honorable discharge, and a thick bureaucratic paper trail of applications, promotions and transfers.

The records show Bush was an eager fighter pilot who said he wanted to spend a lifetime in aviation. But they provide no evidence that he did any military service in Alabama, to which he had requested a transfer in May 1972 to work on a Senate campaign that ended in November 1972.

Full article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A40964-2004Feb13&notFound=true

Finally, this important excerpt:
The White House did not release 44 pages of medical records that Bush's aides received this week, but it allowed a small pool of reporters to peruse them for 20 minutes. Bartlett said that was to maintain a zone of privacy.
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eecee
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a link to an obviously partisan site that nevertheless has a pretty thorough listing of records released - or not released - by GWB and Kerry:

http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp


Last edited by eecee on Sun May 09, 2004 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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