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gulf1609
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 78
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Found address on another form. Looks like the PO box address is correct. Look down onthe bottom left. I don't think the PO address is the one that would be used for anything but mail. The forms on this site also list a different zip for the actual base and another for the PO box. Anyone have any idea how this worked?
http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/doc7.gif
http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp |
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JimRobson
Lieutenant
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 242
Location: Jacksonville FL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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RedneckBob and Navymom:
Those signatures are not even close. Good catch!!!
The superscript issue is the smoking gun.
Thanks everybody 
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noc
PO1
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 492
Location: Dublin, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would say between the signatures and the superscript font size change that there is strong evidence here.
Has anyone sent this off to the media list or drudge? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Let's get the word out to the press folks. I've already talked to Major Garrett but this is going to have to be broadcast if it's going to get any traction.
Move the story, troops!
Tom
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Why is the CYA memo dated in 197_3_? Everything else is 197_2_. |
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JCJR
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| You GottaBeKidding wrote: | JCJR,
What are the changes that a daisy wheel would have print that matches the modern Windows font TNR?
And a daisy wheel printer WOULD NOT do small superscript. It might roll the bail up a bit and print normal-sized characters above the baseline, but it wouldn't print smaller letters. |
Hi GottaBeKidding
The odds seem slim that the font would match as exactly as some claim (haven't checked the documents myself).
I had a daisy wheel in early 80's, and owned Courier, Gothic, and Times printwheels. Times always pretty much looks like Times, but I wouldn't expect a perfect match.
The superscript seems very unlikely.
There was a guy Don Lancaster who wrote tech magazine articles (in late 70's as I recall) on how to use a first generation Apple computer to proportional space on daisy wheel printers.
Don wanted 'inexpensive typesetting' in the days before the laser printer. It is possible he was reverse-engineering much-more-expensive systems available earlier.
It seems unlikely that government offices would use such esoteric equipment in the early 70's, just to type memos. |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Update on the memos. I have typed all four memos.
The two with the return address centered at the top are odd because I had to set my left and right margins at .9". I also had to use a tab and a few spaces in front of "Suspension" in the second line of the subject. Other than that, standard tab and line settings seemed to work just fine.
The font on those two documents looks a little rounder than TNR, but it could be because they were printed from an older inkjet printer rather than a laser printer. The letter shapes are correct |
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Fabius Cunctator
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| BuffaloJack wrote: | | I spent 10 years in active (3) and reserve (7) service. This is the first memo I've ever seen that only used a last name. No military person who ever snapped a salute would have written this. I think you are absolutely right. This has to be a forgery. Also, no military personel would have ever written a memo and not put own his typed name and rank on the bottom along with his written signature. The only exception would be signing for a superior and putting "by direction" with the superiors name. |
Buffalo Jack,
You are on to something here. As a former XO, at company and regimental-equivalent level (Brigade Service Support Group in the Marine Corps Reserve at Camp Lejeune), it smells to me. It is NOT on any sort of letter head, and does not follow any sort of AF rules comparable to naval correspondence rules - no "From" or "To", no numerical code below the date, e.g. with the 1000 series indicating personnel related. I realize this is Air National Guard, but currently working in a Joint environment, I know there are similar usages in other services. And, as you noted, no name or rank of author, or "by direction".
These people have got to be so desperate to sink to this level. This is OLD NEWS, and even on Fox, Alan "Bedwetter" Colmes referred to it last night as "explosive". Come on, folks.... consider the source of this BS.
________________________________________________________
Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator
USMCR – 1974 to the present.
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum; qui victoriam cupit, milites inbuat diligenter; qui secundos optat eventus, dimicet arte, non casu. Nemo provocare, nemo audet offendere quem intellegit superiorem esse, si pugnet." - F. Vegetii Renati Epitoma Rei Militaris, AD 380 |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| You GottaBeKidding wrote: | Update on the memos. I have typed all four memos.
The two with the return address centered at the top are odd because I had to set my left and right margins at .9". I also had to use a tab and a few spaces in front of "Suspension" in the second line of the subject. Other than that, standard tab and line settings seemed to work just fine.
The font on those two documents looks a little rounder than TNR, but it could be because they were printed from an older inkjet printer rather than a laser printer. The letter shapes are correct |
Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that these documents were a product of the '90s at the earliest and definitely not a product of 19 May 1972 in the Texas Air National Guard? Biases aside if at all possible! 
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On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB
Last edited by ASPB on Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RedneckBob
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Signatures? |
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AFAIK, the second link is an authentic doc. It is linked from AWOLBush.com, an anti-Bush site purporting to "prove" his AWOL status.
-RB
| Navymomx2 wrote: |
RB,
Is the second link/doc authentic?
OMG, not even close on sigs. |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Okay, I just printed one of the documents on my inkjet printer and compared it to my laser printer output. I think the forgeries were printed on an inkjet printer. I forget that lots of people use inkjet printers. |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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ASPB,
Give me a few minutes and I'll post the other three documents as I typed them. People can go over them with a fine-toothed comb. I would appreciate any input.
BTW, why the 1973 document? Does that make any sense at all?
Could it be that it's supposed to be 1972 but there's a typo? Or would it really be 1973? |
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Krazykat
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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This is all very interesting.
During 1971 and 1972, I worked at the Air Force Weapons Lab in Albuquerque, NM. We had all the latest equipment including the predecessor to the current day fax machine, high speed copiers, typewriters (mostly IBM), high speed teletype machines, and a crude centralized network word processing system running on one of the most powerful (at that time) computer systems in the world.
The centralized word processing system however could not remotely come close to replicating the type and proportional spacing in these memos.
It is possible that a base commander might have had access to a centralized word processing system that was capable of storing (on tape) documents for later retrieval and that these documents were subsequently reproduced using a system that converted and printed them in proportional spaced type.
As I recall, commercial production of printers capable of printing proportional spaced type began in the late 1970's. One such printer, installed by Shell Oil in Houston in 1979, was as big as a truck. IBM and Wang word processing systems for general office use first appeared around 1980. I can't imagine any military facility budget in 1972 that would allow high end (experimental) printing machines for use in day-to-day memo preparation. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm firmly convinced all the Killian documents I'm hearing about on Fox at the moment are forgeries. Someone want to prove this is wrong after reading this thread? Remembering of course that Killian, apparently, died in 1984 before porportional font type was common? Let alone in 1972 when he purportedly authored the documents.
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On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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neverforget
Vice Admiral
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 875
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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The second document does not use superscript for the 111th; or did somebody already say this?
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