SwiftVets.com

[DougReese]

[War Dog]

First of all, to Saint:

My military career started in July of 70 after I graduated from High school. I had a very low draft number, and I didn’t want to be drafted into the Army or the Marines, so I choose to go into the US Air Force. After basic, I went to Security Police school, then on to Military Working Dog Handler school, then was staff at the school for almost ten months before receiving orders to SEA. Every month that I was staff at the dog school, I put in for Vietnam/Thailand, and finally FIGMO! I went to heavy weapons and ground combat defense school, and in Dec 71 I went over the pond. I landed at TSN, Republic of Vietnam, and spent the day there before getting on a C130 and traveling all over Vietnam and Thailand before getting to Korat RTAFB.

I served with the 388th Security Police Squadron K9 for the next year. My dog and I spent from 12 to 16 hours together on 298 out of 365 nights on the K9 defensive posts on the AF Base. Thank God I never had to face actual combat at the base I was at. Many of the bases in Thailand were hit, and many of my friends who were SP’s and K9’ers were at those bases, and some of them are on the wall. The war or combat zone for the Vietnam War was of course, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and the coastal waters off Vietnam, Cambodia and Thailand.

I returned in Dec 72 to Whiteman AFB in Missouri where for the next year and a half I humped buffs and minutemen sites, and got out when my time was up. I stayed out for five years, and in 79, I was going to go back into the USAF. They were offering me E-4 and my choice of bases, but I would not be able to go back into K9 right away, and the only bases were Minot, Maelstrom and Grand Forks. I choose to go into the US Navy, with service as 8 years as an ET, and 8 years as an EM. I retired with 20+ years of service in Sep of 95. On my last ship, the USS Elmer Montgomery (FF-1082), we left Mayport on Aug 5, three days after Iraq attacked Kuwait, and hauled but over to the MidEast. Because of my Air Force career field, and service over in SEA, plus being part of the ship’s MAA and Self-Defense force, I was chosen to help train the ship’s merchant interdiction boarding party.

We were the first US and UN Coalition ship to accomplish 100 boarding’s of merchant ships in support of Desert Shield/Storm. In Jan of 91, after completing our 100th boarding, we were informed that intelligence had learned that there was a terrorist team training down in the Sudan to get on a merchant ship, and come up and specifically take us out, so the Navy moved us to the top of the Suez Canal checking merchants till we returned in Apr of 91. In my military career, I lived in 34 states, and was stationed in or visited 48 foreign nations.

Good enough for you?


Kudos to you War Dog for replying with intellect.

Thank you, I try to keep the discussions and debates honest and clean with respect towards all. Of course, it doesn’t always stay that way, but I try!

My insult was to the group. Do you really believe this group is looking for truth or just a pro-Bush org?

I honestly believe in what the core group of this organization and loyal supporters of this site and group are trying to say and do. I understand what it was like to come home to a world where you were not welcomed by many people. Many people in the late 60’s and early 70’s hated us, and clearly showed it. This hurt all of us that did our best over there, and did our jobs. When it all boiled down to it, none of us were over there fighting or defending Vietnam or any of the other nations from communism, we were doing it for our buddies in our units and the people on our bases. They are the reason we did what we had to do over there. We did our jobs to the best of our abilities and know how, and the bottom line was to protect yourself, your buddies, your dog (in my case), and to survive one year, or in the case of many army and marines, 13 months, and to return to ‘the world’.

Try and understand what all of us went through when we returned to the US. Many Vietnam Veterans were thought of as baby killers, murderers, rapists, war criminals among other names we were labeled with. Many Americans back here believed that each and every Vietnam Veteran was crazy, wacko, unstable and capable of committing unspeakable acts of violence at any moment against anyone. They believed that we would freak out at the slightest noise or memory or nightmare, or other thing that reminded us of our service in SEA. Some veterans did, but they were very few. Many Vietnam Veterans hid the fact that they were Vietnam Veterans because of the hate and attacks on them by people back here. In some cases, attacks by people that were your friends a year earlier.

Veterans lost their friends, girls, sometimes wives, families and jobs because of what was thought of them. This hatred and false labels on us was a direct result of what Kerry and others like Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Abbie Hoffman, Ramsey Clark said about us. The lies, false accusations and fabrications told by these people and the anti-war groups and liberal biased media convinced thousands upon thousands of Americans that we were in fact what they had been told we were, and that we had committed the very war crimes that Kerry and others said we did.

This hurt deeply, and to many Vietnam Veterans still does to this day. Many of us have never forgiven these people for what they did, and what they said in the 60/70’s. Even to this day, there are still those in this nation that feel the same way towards all Vietnam Veterans that they did back then. I and many other Vietnam Veterans went over there and did our jobs, and some of us never killed anyone, never raped anyone, never murdered anyone, never committed any war crimes or atrocities, yet it was believed that we did, because Kerry and others said that this was done damn near every day on a routine basis over in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand.

These people in this group on this site for the most part have kept their mouths shut for over thirty-five years. But when Kerry started running on his war record, and that he was a decorated Vietnam Veteran and “hero”, it was too much to take. They had to do what they had to do and say what they had to say. Remember that the majority of the people on this site, and in this group of ‘swiftboat veterans against John Kerry’ have been silent up to this point. They presented their case and their site in a press conference and in the many media interviews in a calm and logical manner. They did not call Kerry or anyone else any nasty names, they did not slander his military service, his patriotism or loyalty to his nation. But they did have many questions about Kerry’s service in Vietnam, the honors/medals/ribbons he was awarded, the action reports, etc… They questioned this in a very respectful way.

It was only when others came to this site and began to attack them for their views that they began to fight back, and not take it anymore. That’s when the hate started, the name calling, the insults, the lies, the false accusations, etc… They don’t have to take it anymore, and neither do I. In fact, none of the Vietnam Veterans who make up the majority of the members of this group and on this site don’t have to and shouldn’t.

I think that the majority of the swiftboat veterans against John Kerry, and the Vietnam Veterans here are trying their best to be fair and voice their honest and truthful as they know it, opinions to the best of their abilities. They are not trying to cause anyone any trouble, but just doing what they feel is the right thing to do. Because of his actions, words, deeds after he returned to the US, and since then, these people honestly feel that Kerry should not be the next President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief of this nations military forces. Try and understand it from their point of view.

I’ve said before that ‘those that understand, understand; and those that do not understand, will never understand.’ Many of the posters here on this site are not Vietnam Veterans, and some of them are not even veterans. Many are less than 30 years old, and don’t have a clue as to what went on in the Vietnam War and back here in the states during and after these men returned. All they know is from either books, movies, TV or what they are told by the media. They do not understand what it was like, and they will never be able to understand what it was like because they did not go through it.

The welcome for our troops from Desert Shield/Storm and since then was far different than our welcome from Vietnam. To say the it was like the difference between night and day is an understatement. It is and was like the difference between the planet Mercury and Pluto. Try and not be too harsh on the guys here who are trying to be honest and truthful in their opinions and feelings about Kerry.

I hope this clears up some things for you.

I find the Republicans and the Democrats repulsive, but I find the Republican pundits to be very self-righteous and yet very dishonest. Why is it OK for Bush to lie but not Clinton? Why is it OK for Bush to whore for contributions but not Clinton? Why is this administrations' behavior OK?

I feel that none of the above is okay for any politician or elected official, no matter if republican, democrat, liberal or conservative or other political party. Both sides lie. Remember that still to this day, many defend Clinton, and swear that he never lied, never committed perjury, and never was impeached by the House of Representatives. Both side’s lie, cheat, steal, and so on. This activity goes on in all forms of government in our nation, from the smallest community to the largest city, from the county governments to the state governments, and of course in the Federal government. Remember, our government in Washington is not just Republicans, even in the Executive Branch. The Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches of government are made up of many people who are republican and democrat, liberal and conservative. It’s only the key politicians and players in the key positions in the Executive Branch appointed by the Bush Administration that are republicans.

Our government, either republican or democrat isn’t perfect, never was, and never will be. But it’s a damn sight better than any government and nation on this planet. Believe me, I’ve been to 48 foreign nations, and I’d rather live here than anyplace I’ve ever been!

Does that make lies, false accusations, rumors, and all this nastiness and hate right? No it doesn’t, so you just have to filter out all of that, and try your best to make up your mind based on the truth as you can find it, if you can find it. Remember that most of what you hear on boards on the Internet and in the media just may not be the truth, but someone’s biased, partisan opinion based on their own hate filled agenda.

I only know of one shell with Sarin - they said enough to kill 15 people. Hardly a WMD

Actually, it has been determined that this munitions shell had between 3 and 4 liters of Sarin Gas in it. If the shell had been fired out of a artillery piece like it was intended to be, the shell would have armed itself, and mixed the two chemicals in flight, and when exploding, was capable of killing up to between 20,000 and 30,000 people or more depending on weather conditions. Thank God the terrorists that used this as an IED, did not know how to activate this shell. So, yes, this one shell clearly was a “Weapon of Mass Destruction”. And so was the munitions shell that contained Mustard Gas. Although if exploded properly, it would have killed much less people, still it is also a “Weapon of Mass Destruction”.

Yes, two shells do not make a stockpile, and I certainly understand that. But, like I said, there is a lot of land and places in Iraq that haven’t been explored or inspected yet. More than likely, there are hundreds of caches of explosives or munitions buried or hidden that have not been found. Are their WMD among them? Who knows? We certainly do not. I do not have the answers on these questions, such as did Iraq give or transport WMD to Syria, Jordan, Libya, Iraq or other nations? I do not know! Did Iraq give or sell WMD to terrorist groups? Again, I do not know.

But I do know that from all my experience in the military in NBC warfare, that we had better pray to God that the people that want us dead do not have or never come into contact with any WMD either in Iraq or from Iraq. These are not pretty, neat weapons, and just one chemical or biological WMD exploded correctly will make what happened on 9/11 look like a minor accident.

Remember that one of the head leaders of al Queda said recently that they will feel that their war against us is to be considered a success when at least 4,000,000 Americans are dead. Think about this, they do not care if the people they kill are democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, greenies, Moonies, independents, religious, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu, or other. To these people that have dedicated their lives to this war, they want to kill and maim as many Americans as they possibly can. It’s time for all of us to stop all this hate, all this partisan, biased, political crap, and pull together for the good of our nation and our people.

Just like the North Vietnamese depended on the anti-war movement and anti-war biased media to win the Vietnam War for them, so are the terrorists around the world thoroughly enjoying all this political problems here in the USA.

Corporate profits are up 62 percent and real wages are down .6 percent. We are down 1.5 million jobs according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. People that were programmers do not want to be burger flippers. You lost me at hate filled, as that is just silly talk.

The tax cut was not an even proportional cut. That is not how it worked. The graduated income tax is Constitutional.

Listen, all I care about is that the economy is on the rebound, growing, and we are back on our way to recovery. Honest people understand that no President or presidential administration controls the economy, or makes it go up or down. The only jobs that the Federal Government can create is either within the government itself, in the case of bigger government, or by awarding governmental contracts to civilian companies. The economy is controlled by inflation, spending habits, the stock market, and ultimately each and every American.

It’s only by pumping money back to the people so that they can spend it that makes the economy go up. It’s only by helping businesses that create jobs in this nation. Remember that fully about 75% of the jobs created in this nation at any one time or year are created not by big business or corporations or government. They are created by small businesses, and by those businesses creating jobs and their companies growing that helps the economy grow. And if the people do not go out there and spend their money at these small companies, they do not grow, new jobs are not created, and the economy will not grow or recover.

I understand that a computer programmer doesn’t want to flip burgers, but if you do not have a job, and there isn’t a chance of you having one for a while due to the economic situation, you’d better find something to do to make money for yourself, and your family. Hell, I’ve worked at many second jobs over the last 12 years, just to make ends meet, pay the bills, and put food on the table. I’m a professional in the hospital administration field, and if I can take a second job flipping burgers at Wendy’s/McDonalds/Burger King, delivering pizzas for Pizza Hut, working at a grill in a restaurant, then so can anybody. It hurts my pride not a bit. I do what I have to do for my future, my family and my families future.

So, yes any tax breaks that the people of our nation get back is a good thing. In my opinion, I’d love to see a flat tax instituted, and get away from income taxes, social security taxes, etc. Our government and government programs got along just fine on a flat tax before President Roosevelt and that Congress instituting the Income Tax, Social Security Tax, etc…

Remember that in Bush’s first year of office from January to October, he and his administration was operating on Clinton’s last year’s budget. We were well on our way to a recession in Clinton’s last year of office, and nothing that Bush could have done would have changed it. And I am not jumping on Clinton. If the situation was reversed, and Gore would have been elected, we still would have entered into a recession.

A President, no matter who he is, cannot change the economy in his first one or two years, no matter what he does. And the Congress determines what the budget will be, how much money will be in it, and where that money will be spent. All the President and his Administration do is submit their budget request to Congress.

Also please remember that 9/11 almost totally destroyed this nations’ economy and the stock market. The President, his administration and even the members of Congress had nothing to do with that, and thank God all of them have done what they have done to get us back to this point.

Understand that I am not trying to attack or blame Clinton, or anyone on that side, or defend Bush or anyone on his side. Just giving you my opinion as I see it and understand what happens in our nation.


The reason the refineries are overseas is to avoid regulation. Oil company profits are currently at an all time high. Crude oil prices are double what they were two years ago. The oil companies have no desire to increase demand.

The majority of the gasoline used here in the US is refined here in the US from crude oil either from US wells, or from overseas nations. The majority of the gas refined overseas is used in those nations where the refineries are located. Gas is much to volatile to be transported in ships over the oceans. It’s much easier and safer to transport crude oil, and deliver it to refineries here in the US. Please understand that we could have crude oil delivered at a rate of two or three times what we actually need to the refineries here in the US. The problem is that the refineries like I said, cannot produce more than they can produce. All of our nations refineries are producing at top capacity, 24/7. This nation has not built any new refineries since 1971, and many of them have either closed down, burnt down or due to environmental regulations, cannot be updated to today’s standards.

To build new ones would take billions of dollars, and take years, and a lot of legal battles with the environmental people. Even if we started building just one new refinery today, it would be an estimated 5 to 10 years before completed due to all the regulations and legal battles. Plus, the environmental people (NIMBY)’s will not allow any new fields or drilling in either Alaska, or off the nation’s west, gulf or east coast, and these fields have been estimated that if we can drill all there is to access, it will eliminate all foreign oil dependence and keep us free for decades.

John Kerry proposed the gas tax 10 years ago. About the time George was coming out of his alcoholic haze.

Now that comment was really un-necessary, so I will not reply to it.

Call your local school system and talk to five teachers and administrators. I have called and talked with several.

So have I. Several of my relatives and friends are teachers here in Alabama and in Florida. This nations’ educational systems have been screwed up for a lot of years, and for a lot of reasons. Many more than just what you point out about the “No Child Left Behind” program. The majority of the nations school systems funding doesn’t come from the federal government, but the state government and local governments and communities. There is a real budget problem in our nation in the cities, communities, towns, counties and states. This has nothing to do whatsoever to do with that program, and nothing that program does either increased or decreased will change the problems with most of the states educational systems.

Ask Jose Padilla if he can rely on the American justice system. under the Enemy Combatants action, even American citizens accused as enemy combatants by the executive branch are not entitled to due process. Scary @*$!. You cannot see anyone, talk to a lawyer, or even get a Writ of Habeas Corpus.

I do not know enough about his case to comment about this particular incident. Like I said, incidents like this one happen. They happened before the Act, and will happen long after it is gone. Jose Padilla was involved in terrorism, and by such is an enemy of this nation. He was returning from a foreign nation, from meeting with terrorists in a foreign nation, and from attending a terrorist training camp in that nation. He was planning on committing terrorists acts against this nation, and in doing so, our nation has every right to hold him, and do what has been done. Should he have been given a lawyer, my personal opinion is no, he is an enemy combatant, and therefore is not covered by the justice system or the Geneva Convention. But then again, I am a “War Dog” and I’m a real tough dog when it comes to terrorists and defending our nation.

This is only one example, and look at the thousands upon thousands of American lives that may have been saved by the feds doing what they did. I’m sorry, there are times when the needs and rights of the many outweigh the needs and rights of the few.

So it is OK to lie and steal if you are ???? Please fill in the reason you are excusing it. Where were you on lynching Bill Clinton? Check out the email trail now forming between Cheney and the Pentagon.

I do not excuse any of this. All governments and government leaders do things that many disapprove of. That includes politicians of both political parties. I will not tolerate criminal acts by anyone in our nation, especially politicians and criminals. But, until I see more on this, I will not attack the VP on this, just on say-so, or partisan political pundits saying it’s a fact!

So, once again, lying is ok. If I drive drunk, get arrested and convicted, and lie it is ok? If I get head in the Oval Office, not ok?

Jeez, do not put words into my mouth. I never said it was alright to either drive drunk or lie about it. Let he who has never sinned throw the first stone! Let the thing about Clinton and Monica go, will you? It wasn’t about private sex between the President and someone not his wife. It was about a President of the United States lying, committing perjury before a judge and a grand jury. About a President using the power of his office to deny justice to an American Citizen that was suing him in court. There was a hell of a lot more to what happened with Clinton than just private sex and a blowjob.

No it’s not okay to drive drunk, not okay to lie about driving drunk, not okay to lie about a drinking problem, not okay to lie about being arrested for driving drunk. This is a problem that affects millions upon millions of Americans and their families in our nation. It’s one that should be stopped, but never will. As far as driving DUI or DWI, and lying about it, like I said, everybody lies about something, including many members of this nations government, both democrat and republican alike. It doesn’t make it right, but I am not going to create a huge mountain over something that happened one time, and the person confronted his problem, sought help, and overcame his demons.

Like I said, two wrongs do not make a right! Right?

War Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."

[LewWaters]

[Scott]

[Scott]

[AZ3]

War Dog, thank you very, very, very much for your post. You nailed it.

When my squadron was given three days to pack up, to board ship, and to head out to the war we did not debate, we did it. We didn't like it, but it wasn't about what we wanted. We all had sworn an oath to serve, it was our duty, our role to support you guys on the ground and in the air.

You were not there to protect the people of the United States from the Viet Cong, and certainly nothing I did made this country, this land any safer. No, we were there because we were soldiers, we were airmen, we were Marines and we were sailors.

When we returned there were no "well dones", no thank you's, no...what we got were to be told that what we had done, what we were doing, was wrong.

For someone like me, someone who's only sacrifice was to leave family and friends for months of 12 to 14 hour days, those words were painful enough. Especially so because we too lost people. To flight deck mishaps, to shipboard accidents, to fire.

To those of you in country, who lost brothers to combat, it was devastating.

I know that, I understand that, because in the years since I left the service I have come to befriend many of you. I have been honored to have been welcomed as one of you, to be trusted with the memories and the pain those memories will always cause.

Service in the armed forces of the United States of America always entails paying a price. For some the price is small, for other it is beyond imagination. To those that have served since Viet Nam, and especially those that serve now in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and throughout the world, I can only express my greatest gratitude and admiration. Well done, very well done, and you rightfully have earned the honor that is given to you.

But our honor, the honor of a Viet Nam vet, is honor that was not given to us by a grateful nation for there was none. No, it is given from one to another. it is a shared honor, one of having served in the face of an enemy at home as well as overseas.

John Kerry knows nothing of that honor for he was a contributor to the movement that stripped us of the support we so desperately needed. He fed on the derision that was heaped upon the rest of us. We cannot allow that movement to reawaken in this time when we find ourselves in another war, one that is far more perilous to the nation than ours.

John Kerry may claim that he is behind our troops, he may promise to continue the war on terror as he seems to be doing lately. He may claim to be pro-military and to provide the resources and support they need to continue and to win this fight. But we have seen the true face of John Kerry, and we know all too well that anything he says is simply because it is politically expedient, it serves only to further his own self-serving agenda.

Let the trolls raise their ruckus, let them wail their synchronized hue and cry about this group being pro-Bush. As you so eloquently stated, they will never understand. This group is about not letting history repeat itself, this group is about knowing that placing this country in the hands of a man such as John Kerry would be the gravest mistake the populace has ever made.
_________________
Helantisubron 4, 1970-1974, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club member, Shellback, American. Nuff said.

[cgc]

I have read all the posts, for me its not about Kerry's politics, its not about the Presidents politics. It's about honor, and being a standup guy. John Kerry after four months in VietNam, went back to the world and shot his mouth off and made some accusations that were found to be baldfaced lies. He used the United States Navy and his shipmates as a means to further his own personal agenda. There was never any atrocities commited by any Swift Boat Crews in Viet Nam. John Kerry made a choice when he shot off his mouth, He chose to turn his back on over 50,000 men and women who served their country and now can't speak for themselves. He chose to defame the names of tens of thousands of other veterans who served honorably and with distinction. He lied, chose to distance himself from his Veteran status and slander and discredit the American Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airforce men and Women who served their country with pride and honor. Now he has decided to wrap himself in his Military Service and proclaim his pride as "one of us". Fraid not Mr. Kerry, We got your message in 1971, loud and clear. This is not about politics, its not about Democrats versus Republicans, its not about anything else other than honor amongst American servicemen and women, the respect we Viet Nam vets give to our fallen comrades and each other. Something that Mr. Kerry chose to toss away. Thats what its about for me.

CGC, An Toi, Danang, 1968-69

[ASPB]

[spook]

Kyleparr and Saint you two bozo's shouldn't be posting here when you should be preparing for the upcoming global disaster as the new ice age is rapidly approaching.

You and the other Moveon morons actually believe that The Day After is A True Story. "the film the President doesn't want you to see". Amazing, I guess you can escape through the Stargate(Roland's first film)

[Saint]

[carpro]

[quote="Saint"][ Those poor guys and gals listed on that Wall in Washington died for thier country for sure, but it could have and should have been avoided. I honor them for their sacrifice, but I also grieve for them and their families with the knowledge that the entire debacle could have been avoided quote]


Liar! I highly suspect you don't know the meaning of the word honor.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

[hist/student]

retracted

[DougReese]

[War Dog]

Thanks cgc, you nailed it perfectly.

Saint, no comments on my military service from you? After all, you asked for my qualifications of military service.

As for the thousands of Vietnam Veterans that backed Kerry in 71, it's been well documented that many of those Veterans that testified in Detroit were in fact planted and gave false testimony, as many of them were never in the military at all, and the ones that were, many of them were never in or near Vietnam. Therefore, the testimony that Kerry gave before Congress in 71 was lies and fabrications designed to plant the idea that all Vietnam Veterans were involved routinely in war crimes.

Kerry, Fonda, Hoffman, Hayden, Clark and the other anti-war people, groups, including the VVAW staged scripted rallies and theater purposely designed to convince America that all Vietnam Veterans practiced and committed war crimes and atrocities on a daily basis as routine SOP authorized, ordered and backed by their superior officers, chain of command, and of course the Pentagon and White House. This was all lies, and is the basis of what the majority of Vietnam Veterans in our nation, in the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and other organizations are objecting to, and bringing to the front in the news media, and boards like this one.

The truly sad part is that their actions worked and convinced the majority of Americans that the war in Vietnam was lost even before TET, when in reality, the NVA lost every battle in TET, and the North Vietnamese were seriously considering suing for surrender, but the activities of the above anti-war groups and media convinced them to continue their fight, because they knew and were counting on these groups turning the majority of Americans against the war, and forcing the American government to give up on the war, and sue for peace.

Had the anti-war people, groups and media not done their magic on the American Public, the North Vietnamese would have sued for peace in 1968, and shortly afterwards the war would have been over. These groups were directly responsible for the deaths of many US forces. The majority of US casulities occured after TET.

Casualities:

1961-1965
KIA
1,864
Total Deaths
1,864
WIA
7,337
MIA
18
Total
9,219

1966
KIA
5,008
Total Deaths
6,053
WIA
29,992
MIA
61
Total
36,106

1967
MIA
9,378
Total Deaths
11,058
WIA
56,013
MIA
113
Total
67,184

1968
KIA
14,594
Total Deaths
16,511
WIA
87,338
MIA
176
Total
104,025

1969
KIA
9,414
Total Deaths
11,527
WIA
55,390
MIA
112
Total
67,029

1970
KIA
4,221
Total Deaths
6,065
WIA
24,835
MIA
101
Total
31,001

1971
KIA
1,380
Total Deaths
2,348
WIA
18,109
MIA
16
Total
20,473

1972
KIA
300
Total Deaths
561
WIA
3,936
MIA
11
Total
4,508

1961-1967
KIA
16,250

1968-1972
KIA
29,909

Total KIA
46,159

1961-1967
Total Deaths
18,975

1968-1972
Total Deaths
37,012

Total Deaths
55,987

1961-1967
WIA
93,342

1968-1972
WIA
189,608

Total WIA
282,950

1961-1967
MIA
192

1968-1972
MIA
416

Total MIA
608

1961-1967
Total
112,509

1968-1972
Total
227,036

Total of 61-72
339,545

I'd have to say that from 1961 to 1967 a total of just KIA casualities 16,250 as opposed to between 1968 to 1972 the KIA casualities were 29,909 makes the point that after the largest amount of casualities in the Vietnam War were after the TET offensive in January of 1968!

So therefore, i.e., since the North Vietnamese were willing to sue for peace after their massive defeat in the TET Offensive in 1968, and didn't because of the anti-war crowd's activities back in the USA, and their belief that if they just kept at it, eventually the anti-war movement back in the USA would turn America against the War, and cause America to turn tail, and run is true!

Therefore, the activities of the anti-war movement in the US, including that of Senator John F. Kerry, Jane Fonda, and others directly let not only to the continued fighting in SEA, instead of the North Vietnamese not suing for peace in 1968, but contributed to more deaths, casualities, MIA's, WIA's than before 1968.

Do your homework! I did!

War Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."

[kyleparr]

I changed the original insulting title of this thread and apologize for my negative statement.