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June
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 09 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Has anybody tried looking at this document under a microscope? My husband (a computer designer) just told me that if it was done on a laser printer you will be able to see the dots that form the letters. Not so, apparently, if it was done on a typewriter or an ink jet printer. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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We don't have access to the originals. If you want them released to a professional document examiner write to CBS News and the Boston Globe and demand that they do just that.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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arymann
PO3
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 269
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Look here!
http://www.cnsnews.com//ThisHour.asp#'60%20Minutes'%20Documents%20on%20Bush%20Might%20Be%20Fake
| Quote: | By Melanie Hunter
CNSNews.com Deputy Managing Editor
September 09, 2004
02:34 pm
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts. Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program. More to Come |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Vietnamvetswife,
In the distant past, it was common to type lower case l (L) instead of the digit 1. I see what you are talking about on that memo, but the quality is so bad that it's hard to tell whether there's actually an L in one place and a 1 in the other.
Someone would have to get the ORIGINAL documents. You wouldn't even need to look at them with a microscope. If they are from a typewriter, you can feel the embossing on the back of the page. My guess, based on print quality (I've compared printouts from my laser printer and my inkjet), is that these were printed on an inkjet printer. |
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arymann
PO3
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 269
Location: GA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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The full story is now available:
http://www.cnsnews.com//ThisHour.asp#'60%20Minutes'%20Documents%20on%20Bush%20Might%20Be%20Fake
| Quote: |
'60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake
By Robert B. Bluey
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
September 09, 2004
(CNSNews.com) - The 32-year-old documents produced Wednesday by the CBS News program "60 Minutes," shedding a negative light on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard, may have been forged using a current word processing program, according to typography experts.
Three independent typography experts told CNSNews.com they were suspicious of the documents from 1972 and 1973 because they were typed using a proportional font, not common at that time, and they used a superscript font feature found in today's Microsoft Word program.
The "60 Minutes" segment included an interview with former Texas lieutenant governor Ben Barnes, who criticized Bush's service. The news program also produced a series of memos that claim Bush refused to follow an order to undertake a medical examination.
The documents came from the "personal office file" of Bush's former squadron commander Jerry B. Killian, according to Kelli Edwards, a spokeswoman for "60 Minutes," who was quoted in Thursday's Washington Post. Edwards declined to tell the Post how the news program obtained the documents.
But the experts interviewed by CNSNews.com honed in on several aspects of a May 4, 1972 memo, which was part of the "60 Minutes" segment and was posted on the CBS News Internet site Thursday.
"It was highly out of the ordinary for an organization, even the Air Force, to have proportional-spaced fonts for someone to work with," said Allan Haley, director of words and letters at Agfa Monotype in Wilmington, Mass. "I'm suspect in that I did work for the U.S. Army as late as the late 1980s and early 1990s and the Army was still using Courier."
The typography experts couldn't pinpoint the exact font used in the documents. They also couldn't definitively conclude that the documents were either forged using a current computer program or were the work of a high-end typewriter and word processor in the early 1970s.
But the use of the superscript "th" in one document - "111th F.L.S" - gave each expert pause. They said that's an automatic feature found in current versions of Microsoft Word, and it's not something that was even possible more than 30 years ago.
"That would not be possible on a typewriter or even a word processor at that time," said John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com.
"It is a very surprising thing to see a letter with that date (May 4, 1972) on it," and featuring such typography, Collins added. "There's no question that that is surprising. Does that force you to conclude that it's a fake? No. But it certainly raises the eyebrows."
Fred Showker, who teaches typography and introduction to digital graphics at James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Va., questioned the documents' letterhead.
"Let's assume for a minute that it's authentic," Showker said. "But would they not have used some form of letterhead? Or has this letterhead been intentionally cut off? Notice how close to the top of the page it is."
He also pointed to the signature of Killian, the purported author of the May 4, 1972 memo ordering Bush, who was at the time a first lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard, to obtain a physical exam.
"Do you think he would have stopped that 'K' nice and cleanly, right there before it ran into the typewriter 'Jerry," Showker asked. "You can't stop a ballpoint pen with a nice square ending like that ... The end of that 'K' should be round ... it looks like you took a pair of snips and cut it off so you could see the 'Jerry.'"
The experts also raised questions about the military's typewriter technology three decades ago. Collins said word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time.
"I'm not real sure that you would have that kind of sophistication in the office of a flight inspector in the United States government," Showker said.
"The only thing it could be, possibly, is an IBM golf ball typewriter, which came out around the early to middle 1970s," Haley said. "Those did have proportional fonts on them. But they weren't widely used."
But Haley added that the use of the superscript "th" cast doubt on the use of any typewriter.
"There weren't any typewriters that did that. That looks like it might be a function of something like Microsoft Word, which does that automatically." |
Last edited by arymann on Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:51 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| yep - and you are right - a document examiner won't stake their name on copies. Maybe someone will at get interested enough to help us out. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Do you all realize the power we have? I started this thread, what? 5 hours ago? May your higher power bless you all!
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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llano
Seaman
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 157
Location: Llano Estacado
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Rush is finally discussing this a little.
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Home in Lubbock Texas, home of the Vietnam Project at Texas Tech University. A place visited frequently by Navy Chief. |
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You GottaBeKidding
Rear Admiral
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 692
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Rush just mentioned that word is going around that the documents might be forged!!!!! |
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mr_mechanical
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Rush just mentioned the forgery claims!! |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Great work to all - keep it up! And thanks to you, Tom for kicking this off. I just got an email from a pal that told me he saw on the web that the Bush doc might be a fake! I am grinning big time. |
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Boundless
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 93
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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> ... document under a microscope? ... if it was done
> on a laser printer you will be able to see the dots ...
Only on the original document or high-quality xerox.
The PDF is obviously an nth-generation copy (or
made to look like one), and may even have been
faxed at some point, which will re-sample the 600-,
1200- or 2400dpi laser pixel structure down to
200 dpi or coarser FAX res.
Images in PDFs are usually re-sampled as well.
Whatever - what we CAN see has major problems. And
if a forgery, and the forgers and CBS get away with it,
expect truckloads of more fakes in support of Kerry. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked! It's taken us 5.5 hours to get this story on National radio.
We Rock!
Bless you all!
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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dcrhere
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Now Drudge has it...  |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| dcrhere wrote: | | Now Drudge has it... |
woohoo!!! |
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