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kyleparr
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 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:37 pm Post subject: Please post Collateral on Kerry |
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I hear what you are saying and would like to see some supporting documentation for your allegations. I think the cause of the SwiftVets could be strengthend through the use of actual transcripts, photographs, and other material about Kerry.
Otherwise, I just see a bunch of pissed off guys shouting with nothing to back them up. |
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Hesiod
Former Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Please post Collateral on Kerry |
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| kyleparr wrote: | I hear what you are saying and would like to see some supporting documentation for your allegations. I think the cause of the SwiftVets could be strengthend through the use of actual transcripts, photographs, and other material about Kerry.
Otherwise, I just see a bunch of pissed off guys shouting with nothing to back them up. |
They can't.
The best they can do is show that Kerry repeated stories told to him and others during the Winter Soldiers investigation in Detroit and elsewhere.
Their hook is that it later turned out that some of the testimony was bogus or exagerrated.
They then leap to the assumption that Kerry KNEW it was bogus, or was negligent and gullible in accepting the stories at face value.
If you have not done any research into what actually happened, or are only fed stories by anti-Kerry groups, I can understand why they get that impression.
The truth is that VVAW was aware of bogus war crimes allegations, and took significant steps to make sure that the testimony they heard was genuine.
For examle, they required that each man produce a valid DD-214 before they could even get in the door. They also got double and triple corroboration for the testimony in as many cases as possible from guys in the same unit who served contemporaneously.
They also put together a committee of combat vets who understood the terminology, tactics and deployments to further screen out liars. And they did.
They were not 100% successful, of course. And Kerry has admitted that after the fact.
But, most of the testimony has never been debunked or invalidated. In fact, some subsequent investigations have corroborated similar types of stories (note the Toldeo Blade's recent series on a particular unit of commandoes that routinely committed atrocities in Vietnam).
Also, you have to remember that this testimony was after the stories about My Lai, along with other stories of war crimes, came out of Vietnam.
So, the allegations were credible to Kerry and many of his listeners. He had no reason, at that point, to doubt what he was told.
Not only that, he heard the stories from the actual soldiers, first hand. It was, by his own admission, a powerful and emotional experience. So, the impact would have even been greater on him directly.
To accuse him of LYING or SLANDERING people is a slur and a lie in and of itself. The people making the accusation are guilty of the very crime they accuse Kerry of committing.
By all accounts, John Kerry was a pretty shrewd and judicious guy, even in 1971. I doubt very seriously that he would have made such accusation if he did not believe there was a sound basis for repeating them. As has been pointed out, he had political aspirations. And he was a moderate within VVAW, to boot, who frequently had run ins and conflicts with more radical members like Al Hubbard.
To suggest that he would casually throw these accusations out there without a sound basis for making them just smacks me as ridiculous. |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: it's simple ... |
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Kerry = liar, slanderer, no honor. That's what this is about. End of story.
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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kyleparr
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kerry = liar, slanderer, no honor. That's what this is about. End of story.
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You are joking, right? That is your reply to a request for information? WTF? |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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retracted
Last edited by hist/student on Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kyleparr
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| WHERE???? Seriously. WHERE??? I have combed the site, but not every bulletin board. There is NO documentation on the site. |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:53 pm Post subject: the mother lode |
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Try www.wintersoldier.com plus my Calling All Marines topic. Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| kyleparr wrote: | | WHERE???? Seriously. WHERE??? I have combed the site, but not every bulletin board. There is NO documentation on the site. |
Kyle,
I've responded twice to PMs by telling you to go to wintersolider.com and study before coming here and demanding documentation. We're not running a research library son.
Do your homework and come back later.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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kyleparr
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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I do believe that accusations should be backed up by documentation. You are making claims, you might need to set up a "library" to support your position.
Noone asked your opinion, you just volunteered it. Now, when I ask you to back it up, you tell me it is my responsibility to research the reasons for your opinions. you have the obligation. |
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Saint
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| All one has to do is read the official Naval Fitness Report on John Kerry and that tells the story. These so called Veterans and Punks on this site won't discuss that though. They just want to spread lies. I doubt any of these so called "veterans" actually served anywhere, except being served at their local McDonalds. They all glorify War like it some kind of great thing. Real Combat Vets do not glorify war. |
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kyleparr
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Saint. Stop. Just stop. Try and listen. |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:25 pm Post subject: it's about Kerry, numbnuts ... |
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Kerry = liar, slanderer, no honor.
That's what this is about. End of story.
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Please post Collateral on Kerry |
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| Hesiod wrote: | | They also got double and triple corroboration for the testimony in as many cases as possible from guys in the same unit who served contemporaneously.. |
Okay, here's the index for all the testimonies. Would you please point out to me all of the cases they got a single corroboration of a specific incident
i.e. Don't give me things like Palosaari's
"My primary reason for getting involved in this testimony was because of Jim Weber. He called me up last Thursday night. He said he was coming up to Detroit to testify. He gave me a rundown on what he planned on telling the people. And everything he said was true and, you know, I had to support him. I told him I would. I'd collaborate his story."
He's collaborating the testimony before it's given in toto!
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_entry.html | Hesiod wrote: |
They also put together a committee of combat vets who understood the terminology, tactics and deployments to further screen out liars. And they did.
They were not 100% successful, of course. And Kerry has admitted that after the fact. |
And speaking of Weber v. screening
WEBER: "I'm the Jim that he's talking about. This had bothered me for a long time. Prior to going into service, I was a manager of a shoe store--it's a chain across the country. I had a relatively easy job, well paying job. And so I imagined I would be a flag waver because I had a little bit of money and I wouldn't care about, you know, I had a racist attitude. Of course, we all still have racist attitudes. I, I didn't care about anyone else. You know, I cared about myself and I, I got drafted into the army and it, it made quite a big change because I was waving flags all the time that I was on my train, you know, down to South Carolina where I got my murder training. And I...okay, I went in there, and my complete moral worth was completely destroyed. I mean I was a worthless human being. The worst thing that you can be in the military is to be called a civilian. And so they had to completely resocialize us, which they were very effective at doing. I didn't agree with everything, but I went along with it. Then I was sent on to advanced genocide training down at Fort Polk, Louisiana. And this, this is where I got, you know, this is where I started to hate, hate anything that wasn't exactly like me. Anything that wasn't a fighting machine. Gooks. You've heard that mentioned here for three days, but I don't think you really know what it means unless you know how much hate is instilled in one person, how much, how much really guilt, I mean...like if you're not white and 21, you know, forget it. And this is what they do. This is what they do. They turn you into a fighting machine and it's, it's so, it's so hideous some of the things. I mean we've gone into barracks and we've had like pictures of...well, they weren't pictures, they were like cartoons, with slant eyes, you know.
Everything was a slant eye and these little hats on the top, you know. And these were the people you were hating. They were positioned right above the gun racks, you know. No uniform or anything, just, just simply the profile of one, or maybe the face, full face of another. And this, this went on, you know, for sixteen straight weeks. By the time I had left Fort Polk, Louisiana, I wanted to kill my mother, you know. Or anyone, that, that wasn't, you know, completely in agreement with me. I wanted to just kill everything, you know. It's really bad. I went over to Vietnam with the same attitude because I, I had been trained and I knew I was an effective fighting machine. That I was going to kill everything in my path and it started out and it...it lasted for about one day. When I got there and saw the _____ being beat out of a few children, you know. And from there on, it was all downhill and, man, like I was a great American, and I think I still am a great American, you know. Just because you don't completely agree with something you don't understand, there was no reason why, you know, you should be a Communist and write with your left hand. And it's really wild. Through Vietnam these things just kept going and going on and going on. I can relate to you _____ that went on. I mean, like, you've gone through this, right, you've gone through the whole thing. But even the people that were on our side, man, even the people that were fighting with us, were still lower class, second class citizens, you know. Since there weren't that many, they were a complete different race. We would call them niggers, you know, in this country. Over there we call them gooks, you know. It's the same thing. They're second class citizens. It's a complete racism thing, you know. Okay, so what happened? Like even the people that are supposed to be on our side, they're supposed to be fighting with us. Right? I have an example here. This isn't an atrocity. You know, it isn't blood and gore. We went into a village and we searched, we searched the people and not everyone understandably could be in the military because someone had to, you know, work the land. Someone had to provide the food. Okay, who was going to do this? It was people...it was people that, you know, had special permits, special passes, special ID cards. Now these are the people that are on our side.
We went into a village and we took the ID cards off of people and sent them back to the rear. I have one here that the press can verify after. (Bill Schmidt of the Detroit Free Press is supposed to be writing this down. I don't know how far he's got with it.) I'd like to know what happened to this man. Not this man, but all of our yellow brothers. It's just a big racism thing. You know, they're all complete second class citizens and it's really, really hideous, you know. There's a number of things. And then, when I come out of the service, and I come back. I would go into, you know, the bars, to where my friends used to loaf and, you know, I would hear these same things going on, that went on before I left. But now, things had changed for me, see. Because I had seen what was going on. I had firsthand, you know, witnessed these things and I wasn't getting it from the Pittsburgh Press or the Pittsburgh Post Gazette or anything like that, man. I had seen it. And my father, my parents, had sent me clippings of these massive massacres that we had committed. My unit, the 196th, which weren't true. You know, simply weren't true. And, the same thing that's been brought up all day long about the body count. Everything is a bunch of lies. And you get people sitting back here, you know, back here, and, and they believe this stuff and that's what we've got to get out. I really believe it. Like I've said before, you know. I think this is being a true American. I think it's, you know, sticking up for your country. Damn it, I love this country and I can't see it being run by fascist pigs, you know."
And the Crime was he stole an id card??
| Hesiod wrote: |
But, most of the testimony has never been debunked or invalidated. |
Yes, and none, zip, nada, zero of them have ever been substantiated despite NIS being directed fo investigat the allegations. VVAW instructed the participants not to cooperate.
Guenter Lewy America in Vietnam
"Yet the appearance of’ exactitude was deceptive. Sen. Mark O. Hatfield of Oregon was impressed by the charges made by the veterans and inserted the transcript of the Detroit hearing into the Congressional Record. Furthermore, he asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the numerous allegations of wrongdoing made against the marines in particular. The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service, are interesting and revealing. Many of the veterans, though assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities. A black marine who agreed to be interviewed was unable to provide details of the outrages he had described at the hearing, hut he called the Vietnam war “one huge atrocity” and “a racist plot.” He admitted that the question of atrocities had not occurred to him while he was in Vietnam, and that he had been assisted in the preparation of his testimony by a member of the Nation of Islam. But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit, One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name. "
| Hesiod wrote: | | In fact, some subsequent investigations have corroborated similar types of stories (note the Toldeo Blade's recent series on a particular unit of commandoes that routinely committed atrocities in Vietnam). |
Yes and at least 119 people were convicted in Court Martials, 3 were given immunity to testify, 3 were KIA before disposition, and 2 were found insane. Guenter Lewy America in Vietnam
We're still a long ways from "on a day to day basis"
| Hesiod wrote: | | Also, you have to remember that this testimony was after the stories about My Lai, along with other stories of war crimes, came out of Vietnam. |
In fact the Calley court martial was just begining
| Hesiod wrote: | So, the allegations were credible to Kerry and many of his listeners. He had no reason, at that point, to doubt what he was told.
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But he had an obligation as an organizor, as a member of the VVAW excecutive committee and as a witness before congress to ensure they were acturate statements.
Had no reason to doubt? Would you take at face value and place your reputation on the veracity of the following statement by our friend Mr. Camile:
"CAMILE. He never said not to or never said anything about it. The main thing was that if an operation was covered by the press there were certain things we weren't supposed to do, but if there was no press there, it was okay. I saw one case where a woman was shot by a sniper, one of our snipers. When we got up to her she was asking for water. And the Lt. said to kill her. So he ripped off her clothes, they stabbed her in both breasts, they spread-eagled her and shoved an E- tool up her ******, an entrenching tool, and she was still asking for water. And then they took that out and they used a tree limb and then she was shot."
and
"CAMILE. The way that we distinguished between civilians and VC, VC had weapons and civilians didn't and anybody that was dead was considered a VC. If you killed someone they said, "How do you know he's a VC?" and the general reply would be, "He's dead," and that was sufficient. When we went through the villages and searched people the women would have all their clothes taken off and the men would use their penises to probe them to make sure they didn't have anything hidden anywhere and this was raping but it was done as searching.
| Hesiod wrote: | | By all accounts, John Kerry was a pretty shrewd and judicious guy, even in 1971. I doubt very seriously that he would have made such accusation if he did not believe there was a sound basis for repeating them. As has been pointed out, he had political aspirations. |
Exactly. He had political aspirations.
| Hesiod wrote: | | And he was a moderate within VVAW, to boot, who frequently had run ins and conflicts with more radical members like Al Hubbard. |
I believe Al Hubbard was the gentleman who nomiated JFK2 to the VVAW exec committee. Didn't the conflict with Hubbard start after it was shown that Hubbard had never served in Vietnam.
| Hesiod wrote: | | To suggest that he would casually throw these accusations out there without a sound basis for making them just smacks me as ridiculous. |
Not if you don't have to back them up.
I find it interesting that an organization that boast of over 20,000 members can't find more than 150 (or 105 depending on source) to testify in support of the organization basic premis for exsistance.
I mean where is Kerry's testimony? Where is Hubbard's? Oh yea. He's the one the "committee of combat vets who understood the terminology, tactics and deployments to further screen out liars" vetted.
 NOT!!
_________________
A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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AZ3
Ensign
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 53
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kyleparr wrote: | | Saint. Stop. Just stop. Try and listen. |
Thank you Kyle.
_________________
Helantisubron 4, 1970-1974, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club member, Shellback, American. Nuff said. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: |
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"kylee whatever .. there are countless refferences to real hard documents on this website and you've made it clear your angle is to play a innocent in search of knowledge?? "
Lots of that "documentation" includes articles from NewsMax or the Reverend Moon (using his proxy, the Washington Times). On occasion, a freeper BBS post counts as "documentation."
To maintain their delusions, legitimate news sources that contradict their views are rejected since they make up "the liberal media."
Forget documentation. You won't get it from these folks. They still think that Clinton killed small children in Mena while smuggling tons of cocaine. |
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