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Bill Levinson
Seaman
Joined: 25 Jul 2004
Posts: 184
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 Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | If he shot a wounded and fleeing soldier in the back, it may have been eligible to be prosecuted as a war crime, depending on the circumstances. |
I am not an expert on the Hague and Geneva Conventions but I don't think it's illegal to shoot an enemy who is trying to run away, even if he is unarmed. (Because if he returns to his lines he can pick up another weapon and come back.) He has to surrender if he doesn't want to be killed.
If the enemy soldier WAS trying to surrender and Kerry gunned him down anyway, this could change things greatly.
_________________
--Bill
http://www.stentorian.com/politics/kerry Growing dossier on John Kerry's lack of character, ethics, and integrity. Free leaflets, Election 2004 |
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Bostonian
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| HardCorps wrote: | Let us not forget:
1) By deliberately and foolishly beaching his boat, Kerry needlessly increased the risk to his crew, embarked personnel, and perfectly good craft by 100x. What did he gain compared to the lives he stupidy risked? |
This does sound like a mighty stupid maneuver, but reportedly the officers on all the ships that day had agreed to the tactic. I think at least one of them has spoken up to say so. |
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Bostonian
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Is this action worthy of a Silver Star or Bronze Star? |
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| montanaguard wrote: |
From a personal perspective, chasing a single VC carrying a rocket who had been wounded by a large caliber machine gun a short distance and then shooting him near a hotch, while certainly not a cowardly act, does not seem to rise to an act of great valor.
Is a medal deserved for this or is pursuing a wounded enemy action that would seem rather normal and run of the mill for a combat veteran? |
I'm not a vet either, but it seems to me that the issue is that the actual medal citation describes the entire event rather inaccurately.
Somebody at some point in the past apparently felt that the medal would be inappropriate if the circumstances were described accurately. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| igor wrote: | | NavyChief wrote: | Sorry to be a pest but if everyone starts reporting this as Kerry's report then Rood will come out and say, "no -- I wrote it". That's gonna deflat the debate.
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from http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-040821rood,0,4945304.story?coll=chi-news-hed
| Quote: | We called Droz's boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch--a thatched hut--maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat's leading petty officer with whom I've checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation. |
If it was Rood, then he has just contradicted himself, since the report says that the person was wounded as he ran away. |
It could very well be Rood's memory is foggy. But there is a lie -- either back then or now.
Perhaps this should be shown to Rood and ask him if he wrote it. After all he did say "Our reports" refering to that day.
- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Is this action worthy of a Silver Star or Bronze Star? |
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| montanaguard wrote: | So it appears that the documents provide a fairly clear picture of what happened on that day.
The PCFs counterattacked and the crews engaged the VC (at least one VC jumping from a spider hole or perhaps three, not certain as to how many) that were waiting in ambush, with LtJG Kerry and perhaps others giving a short chase.
But it does not sound like there were a lot of VC at the spot that the PCF crews beached for the second time. The main hostile event seems to have occurred previously where the troops hit the beach to pursue the VC.
If the PCF crews were laying down a barrage of suppresive fire into the area near where they landed, that would be a lot of fire power, the 50's on top and the two front gunners plus whatever small arms carried by the remaining crew and would seem to even the odds rather dramatically against any close in foe.
Does not sound like they were facing superior numbers or hardened positions? It sounds like the VC fled quickly (what few there were) and did not put up any or much resistance to what could be debated as a rather unconventional action for a patrol boat group.
From a personal perspective, chasing a single VC carrying a rocket who had been wounded by a large caliber machine gun a short distance and then shooting him near a hotch, while certainly not a cowardly act, does not seem to rise to an act of great valor.
Is a medal deserved for this or is pursuing a wounded enemy action that would seem rather normal and run of the mill for a combat veteran?
Never been to war so I don't know if this was a truly brave act of extraordinary courage and cleverness or just one doing their job, but seems kind of unremarkable given all the ambushes that occurred in Nam.
Seems like the choice of turning to fight and beaching the craft turned out alright in this instance but a beached boat is a still boat and would seem to be subject to counterattack, from either bank. I did not figure the role of the navy to act like infantry unloading from an APC to engage an ambush on foot. Has anyone asked other Swifties if this tactic was wise, normal, approved or was it novel and a spur of the moment opportunistic decision?
I can't help wonder what would of happened if while they were off the beached boats the VC opened up from the other bank? It would seem likely the boats would have been sitting ducks and would have been very hard to return to? The front gunners would have been of little use facing the wrong way to fend of an attack from the rear and the rear deck would have been an exposed kill zone. The top gunners would have been targeted for sure by snipers but then they supposedly could turn and pour 50's in return, if they survived the surprise.
As I say the tactic seems to have worked this time but I can't figure that it was the proper action for a PFC. The loss of mobility and the departure of crew members would seem to leave the primary military asset abandoned and exposed. Certainly an army tank crew would not jump out and pursue a single wounded VC would they?
Your thoughts. |
Read the BRAVO ZULU from Captain Hoffman which was posted on the Chicago Tribune page along with Rood's story. It is in the left hand column, mislabled as "28 Spot Report". Captain Hoffman uses distinct language that says, "you guys were lucky the ground troops were there". In other words, the OTC would have been court martialed had this turned out bad.
- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I sure would like to see who the witnesses are (among other things such as the dates the recommendation went up the chain of command) in Kerry's missing Silver Star recommendation. With all the different versions floating around, in my opinion, this could be key. |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Okay,
Now that the crisis is over, I'll explain why Kerry didn't write this report -- LTjg Rood did.
*You may want to print these for ease at explanation
Documents you need:
281225Z FEB 69 MTSR 28/1/194.5.4.4/2
271545Z FEB 69 MTSR 27/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1
COMNAVFORV to CTF 115
COMNAVFORV SEALORDS 270 BRAVO ZULU
Chicago Tribune's "This is what I saw that day"
ROOD'S STORY
**Also in left hand column: (1) William Rood's Bronze Star Citation, (2) The After Action Report (which is not an After-Action report -- it is a BRAVO ZULU message).
***Items not yet posted: 28 FEB - 7 MAR Box Score Reports
****Additionally, if you wish -- Kerry's Silver Star citations (plural) and UFC.
Today's report, 281225Z FEB 69
- First thing to note is the ZNY CCCCC ZYO RHMCSAA line. ZNY is a Z code meaning "do not transmit less than classification" followed by CCCCC = Confidential.
{{EDITED - SEE UPDATED INFO}}
ZYO code is "message originated from mobile units" The Coast Guard Cutter (at least in Coastal Zone IV) were using COMCOSRON 1's communications guard to send traffic. It now makes sense because COSRON ONE was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay and Captain Hoffman was their operational boss. Whenever you see the ZYO code followed by RHMCSAA then you know the message was sent from one of the Cutters.
- Message is from CTE 194.5.4.4 *see: ORGANIZATION BREAKOUT
- Normally Officer in Tactical Control (OTC) submits the report for the group, however not always the case as with 13 MAR 69 incident. You must also look at the MTSR line.
- MTSR line: 28/1/194.5.4.4/2 (Date/report number/author of report). In this case, LTjg Kerry was the OTC, his number should be /1. This indicates the second boat in this unit designated /2 for this mission authored the report.
Note that paragraphs in the formatted message 1-4 are missing in this report. para (1) would be the OTC of the mission, para (2) would be the coordinates of the mission, para (3) would be the time of the mission, and para (4) would be the units involved in the mission. This report begins with the para (5) SEALORDS 270. I'm not sure why the mission was numbered "270". This is out of sequence with the other SEALORDS missions but it is important to understand later in COMNAVFORV's message.
Extremely important is in para (6) ..."ambused previous night, (MY 271545Z) ..." **Here is where you know that Kerry didn't author this report. Kerry was not the OTC for the 27 FEB mission, Rood was the OTC, thus he refers "his" message of the previous night's action in this report. Read further: ...OTC called for all units to turn into fire and beach". Again, we know Kerry was the OTC. The style of writing here is very different from Kerry's. The author uses Vietnamese in the report: "CHIEU HOI (to make surrender) the snipers". Kerry never uses such phrases in his reports.
271545Z FEB 69 MTSR
This was the previous night's action written by the OTC of that mission.
- MTSR 27/1/CTE 194.5.4.4/1
- Same boats as 28 FEB action: PCFs 23, 43, and 94. Rood, Droz, and Kerry.
COMNAVFORV to CTF 115
Note the referenced message VADM Zumwalt is writing a BRAVO ZULU for: under SEA LORDS 270, A. 281130Z FEB 69 **This is the message Kerry sent, 55 minutes before Rood's message went out.
Note the text: "The devastating effects of SEA LORDS 270 reported by Ref A in which PCF teamed with... Again, Zumwalt is praising them for what was reported in the 281130Z FEB 69 message. This message has not been found yet. We don't know what Kerry wrote. What we see is what Rood wrote. Rood's report doesn't mention GDA and enemy KIA or WIA -- this came from Kerry's report. But VADM Zumwalt mentions it: 10 KIA, 3 CIA (captured in action), 12 tons of enemy rice, 30 Sampans, 15 structures and 7 bunkers... WOW! This doesn't sound anything like what Rood wrote. Kerry's report must have been full of embellishments and "single handedly winning the war". Which is also proof that Kerry didn't write the 281225Z FEB report -- it didn't have enough "victory stuff" in it.
Now you can read Rood's article and look at this report (281225Z FEB 69) with understanding. Zumwalt was very impressed with what Kerry said happened, thus the quick SILVER STAR. This seemed to happened over and over again where the hero of the story was LTjg John Forbes Kerry.
WARNING CHARACTER ANALYSIS FOLLOWS:
In the 28 FEB - 7 MAR Box Score Reports - Captain Hoffman awards Kerry's boat group the "LATCH" award for the week. Again, more greasing of the skids for Kerry's quick SILVER STAR. However, in his BRAVO ZULU message on the SEALORDS 270 operation, Captain Hoffman makes clear that they were lucky because the RF/PF troops were there to prevent them from "falling into a compromising position". In other words, "you're lucky no one was injured for your stupid stunt". However, since VADM Zumwalt had received Kerry's "victory stuff" report, Hoffman was not at liberty to slam the "Admiral's boy".
- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?
Last edited by NavyChief on Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArmyWife
Lieutenant
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 218
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Chief,
This is off-topic but I just want to thank you for making it possible for civilians like me to even begin to understand this stuff. You make this forum worth reading. 
With highest regards,
ArmyWife |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:43 am Post subject: |
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Why thank you ArmyWife 
- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Is this action worthy of a Silver Star or Bronze Star? |
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| montanaguard wrote: | | .. I did not figure the role of the navy to act like infantry unloading from an APC to engage an ambush on foot. Has anyone asked other Swifties if this tactic was wise, normal, approved or was it novel and a spur of the moment opportunistic decision? |
Here's a quote from Kerry during the 4/71 protest (The Evening Star), where he flippantly indicates "going against orders" -- notice the use of "we" to which O'Neill has commented on many times with regards to Kerry speaking FOR the Swiftees actions:
Kerry, after graduating from Yale University, enlisted in the U.S. Navy and volunteered for duty aboard one of the gun boats used to patrol the waterways of Vietnam: "We established an American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks,” said Kerry. “Those were our instructions, but they seemed so out of line that we finally began to go ashore, against our orders, and investigate the villages that were supposed to be our targets. We discovered we were butchering a lot of innocent people, and morale became so low among the officers on those ‘swift boats’ that we were called back to Saigon for special instructions from Gen. Abrams. He told us we were doing the right thing. He said our efforts would help win the war in the long run. That’s when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam.” |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Is this action worthy of a Silver Star or Bronze Star? |
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| Quote: | | [quote="Beatrice1000]"We established an American presence in most cases by showing the flag and firing at sampans and villages along the banks,” said Kerry. |
Yup, and we have proof that Kerry inflated his reports about firing at Sampans and villages. Ironically, he was awarded the "LATCH" award for doing so. The only reason he got the award was because his reports had more embellishments than the other OINCs.
| Quote: | | “Those were our instructions, but they seemed so out of line that we finally began to go ashore, against our orders, and investigate the villages that were supposed to be our targets. We discovered we were butchering a lot of innocent people, and morale became so low among the officers on those ‘swift boats’ that we were called back to Saigon for special instructions from Gen. Abrams. He told us we were doing the right thing. He said our efforts would help win the war in the long run. That’s when I realized I could never remain silent about the realities of the war in Vietnam.” |
Hmmm. Seems to me, I recall Tom Wright telling LCDR Elliot he didn't want Kerry in his boat group any longer because he wouldn't follow orders. Kerry seemed to have a problem disappearing and firing on anything that moved.
Hey, John... about that going ashore and investigating what was your target -- did that include chasing the wounded VC behind the hootch and shooting him in the back? What I can't figure out is why Kerry took so long to shoot the VC? According to Rood, Kerry was behind that hootch for a full 2-3 minutes before he shot him.
Do you think they were having a political discussion and then Kerry found out the VC was a republican?  I know bad taste.
- Chief
_________________
Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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fanningp
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 89
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| Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | | Again, more greasing of the skids for Kerry's quick SILVER STAR. |
"greasing of the skids"....now that's a term I've not heard in 14 years.....oh how I do miss the Navy......
Seriously Chief.....awesome report! I'm still perusing it now.....
_________________
Pete Fanning
US Navy, DP1, '84-'92
http://peterepublic.org |
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