SwiftVets.com

[reasonable]

[reasonable]

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

I don't think anyone can deny that atrocities occurred in the Vietnam war.

They are deplorable wherever they occur.

What I'm calling BS on is John Kerry's having witnessed or participated in war crimes. That they occurred with the frequency and the knowledge and participation of the full chain of command.

If Kerry witnessed any of this and he didn't report it, then he is just as bad as the people in Tiger Force and My Lai because he enabled that abuse of power to continue, uninterrupted.

What I'm calling BS on is the question of when this renegade was supposed to have seen all these things? Did he break away from his units and go off in his own brush patrols? Because none of the other men seem to tell the same story except for the few former crewmembers who go with him all over the place.

What I'm calling BS on is the fact that he gathered together 150 people to testify about a variety of abuses in Vietnam from war crimes to racism to insubordination to illicit drugs.

He didn't bother to vet his witnesses and of the 70-something that testified to war crimes, 12 have been discredited as never having been in VN, never having been in the unit or area described in the WSI testimony, and in at least one case, never having been in the military.

He then used this fraudulent testimony in sworn witness before Congress.

With four months in theatre, he set himself up as an expert on Vietnam.

He testified that the 200,000 Vietnamese that we were murdering each year in these war crimes would at least be stopped and these people could go on with their lives if we were to pull out of Vietnam.

How many millions died in the sweep when the VC took control? In Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam - how many millions died in all the killing fields when we DID pull out?

Uh-oh. Guess we shouldn't trust communist governments, after all, eh Mr. Kerry?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[Jim]

I looked back on this board to see if there was any response, and I am sorry if my questions stirred up a hornet's nest. I didn't mean to cause a problem. i've been on only a few chat room boards before, mostly for sports, (I'm a Vikings fan) and some hobbies/games and never had a reaction like this one.

I've decided to continue to listen to what the Swiftvets groups has to say. Someone earlier asked if I was condemning 200 vets because of what I saw as too-close political ties of the leadership to the Republicans. I realize that's exactly what I was doing and thats not right.

Now, mind you...I still have some doubts about a few of the people in charge, but from what I can see by the reaction to my questions, there's good honest, open discussion here (though a little heated for my tastes), and political debate is always a good thing.

Again, my apologies if I entered the discussion on the wrong foot.

[Craig]

[quote="Navy_Navy_Navy"]Was O'Neill an opponent?


This group of Swifts has been accused of being a bunch of bitter old alcoholics, angry men who can't get past Vietnam, all the way up to being Bush/RNC shills. More accusations are on the way - the larger the threat this group becomes to the Kerry campaign, the shriller the voices will be.
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I have seen the above stated again and again and have not seen any link to where the accusation originates.

[sparky]

"What I'm calling BS on is John Kerry's having witnessed or participated in war crimes."

He hasn't made any claims that are uncorroborated by people who were also there, including those now campaigning with him.

Jim initially asked "Is this whole thing just political?" You bet it is. O'Neill clerked for Justice Rehnquist and took orders from Watergate felon Chuck Colson.

It would be truly impressive if this group was just a spontaneously formed collection of swift boat veterans concerned about America's future and genuinely disturbed by Kerry. So impressive, in fact, that they've taken great pains to make it appear this way when it is not.

One of his law partners, Margaret Wilson, was General Counsel to Governor George W. Bush, 1998-2000. She succeeded Alberto Gonzales, who currently serves as White House counsel. Wilson went to Washington with the Bush, who appointed her deputy general counsel in the Department of Commerce. O'Neill and Wilson's law firm is deeply entrenched in GOP politics.

[Jeremy Eaton]

[Marine's Wife]

FYI....John O'Neill has more decency in his little finger than John Kerry EVER had ! These vets,as well as many others have been through hell,because of Hanoi Kerry,and the Hollywood trash. Spat on by the "peace nics",tree huggers,lying politicians,and the stupid people who swallow their daily dose of lies and poison. If you can't bear the truth,about Viet Nam,why not go to 'moveon.org or one of the other liberal sites? Stop smelling up an otherwise good board,with your drivel!!

[sparky]

You know, I never did believe that "spit on by protesters and called a baby killer" stuff about Vets returning home. One investigator concluded that it was an urban myth:

Jerry Lembcke, an associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross College, did an exhaustive search in the process of writing his 1998 book, The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam. He found not a single case of a returning Vietnam veteran spat upon by antiwar activists. The relation between Vietnam veterans and the peace movement was generally good, since the antiwar people saw the mostly working class vets as just as much victims of the war machine as the Vietnamese peasants. We should remember that in that war, as many as 550,000 GIs went AWOL or deserted. A Harris Poll in 1971 showed that only 1% of the veterans encountered hostile reactions when they came home, and they did not think the antiwar movement was hostile to them.

There are practically no reports of spitting during the war itself (1965-75). The first reported instance occurs during an International Day of Protest featuring "Veterans for Peace in Vietnam." Here it is the war supporters who are spitting on the pro-peace veterans. In 1965, World War II veterans who were taking part in an antiwar demonstration were reviled as "cowards" and "traitors."

The rest of this fascinating piece can be found here:
http://www.thevoicenews.com/News/2003/0228/In_Response/R03_Bernard-re_Barlow.html

[sparky]

Here's another good article on the spitting myth:

http://slate.msn.com/id/1005224/

[JasonBinPNW]

Your thought processes amaze me.

You believe Kerry was telling the truth, even though he himself has as much admitted he lied.

You quibble over the definition of what "Is" a war crime.

You want us to believe that Kerry "Might not have known" what he was doing was a war crime at the time he was doing it.

You believe that all of the signers of the letter to Kerry are GOP Operatives... all of them... even the registered Dems.

You believe that about half or slightly less of those who served in Vietnam comitted war crimes.

And now you believe that there was no abusive treatment towards Vietnam Vets.

At some point you have to get a good chuckle at yourself. You have abosultely no moral courage or intellectual integrity Sparky. No rational person could have ALL of those ideals. Most of them are contradictory. Looks to me like you are making allowances in your beliefs. That shows a lack of charactor... or it shows that you are switching from poster to poster using the same screen name (which also shows lack of charactor).
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Jim,
I am not a member of this organization, only a supporter of their work. I only ask that you remain objective.
_________________
Semper Fi!

Jason

Proud member of "The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy"

[eecee]

[sparky]

[Marine's Wife]

Were you even alive then sparky? I was. They met the ships screaming and spitting. Most of them(the vets) couldn't even get a job. They were treated shabbily,by the protesters,as well as their own government.

I don't get my information from websites. (anyone can have one) The content is only the creator's OPINION.

I was the wife of a Marine,with 3 young children,at that time. So I KNOW first hand how they were treated.
Your hero (Kerry) not only makes me sick,but he scares the hell out of me. He was, and still is a traitor,sucking at the sewer pipes of the U.N.

Every time Kerry,"Uncle Teddy," (you know,....that brave man who wasn't too drunk to save his own hide,but too drunk to save his pregnant girlfriend from drowning)Nancy Pelosi,Charlie Rangle,etc,etc,ETC, trot out and condemn the President, They put a price tag on the head of my grandson,also a Marine.
I despise these liars,and will speak out AGAINST them every time I have the chance.

[sparky]

"Most of them(the vets) couldn't even get a job. They were treated shabbily,by the protesters,as well as their own government. "

I believe that. I believe that probably all vets were mistreated in some way or another.

I just don't believe that the spitting took place beyond a few instances. I think Lembke was pretty exhaustive in his research.