SwiftVets.com

[Mary]

I've already looked at the other sites prior to arriving here and I knew of wintersoldier.com from O'Neill's book. I came here because there is no place to write to O'Neill directly and ask a question and this site has an actual forum to ask questions, which is helpful.

The idea that someone has a different political view point than yours and is "liberal," is not relevant to me; in fact often the so-called "liberal" media is accused of being ultra-conservative, depending on the issue, particularly when they criticized the Clinton admin when it was in power.

There are many veterans who disagree with SBVfT, including Democrat veterans, like four my friend who sent me the chart link has in her immediate family in different branches of the service who she said didn't think much of the accusations made in the book and the advertisements (at least one of those veterans in her family has read the book and discussed it with her). Unfortunately some of the websites up in favor of the swiftvets use a lot of shrill, hysteria-oriented rhetoric about "unAmerican" activities and so forth that isn't persuasive to people who aren't all ultra-conservative. The facts need to rise above political persuasions. Whether someone is a veteran or not, this doesn't mean they are an ultimate source of information, and no, I don't just go on some numeric count of who to believe. I go on the facts and how well they are cited and substantiated, and that is what O'Neill has on his side as a former debate team member and many years as a lawyer. He did include many cites. One thing I wish he'd done is include page numbers of some articles where he just gave the date, but he did a fair job in general. There are some places where he didn't source his statements and those are situations that invite questions.

The issue is not about just "believing" someone blindly because because they are in the military. I have many military friends and tons of family members who are war veterans from a previous war. There is more to citing accurate info than just pointing to one's veteran background, and O'Neill realizes this and does a pretty good job when he is the one answering the questions. He's not here to answer mine, so I do thank those who tried to answer me.

thanks again.

[GoophyDog]

Mary; Have you read Mr. Elliott's affadavit? He did not contradict himself, he contradicted what was depicted in the article. I believe he even filed a clarification affadavit addressing that specific issue.

Your question #1 - I suggest you look at the after action reports and the research done here by NavyChief. You'll find these by doing a forum search. To summarize it, the holes were received in an earlier engagement. If you are as honest in your search as you state, you'll find the commentary enlightening as to why there are only three bullet holes in one boat despite traveling "5000 meters in a hail of fire".

Mr. O'Neill addressed the issues in your question #2 quite recently in California. Unlike Mr. Kerry, his shipmates stood up for him when he was falsely accused of war crimes, specifically shooting that one, lone, wounded, presumed VC. If you read closely, Mr. Elliot, whose quote is used, says the UNIT served with honor. The ommission after noting Kerry's courage is quite damning in my opinion. If you look over the transcripts of that incident you'll see they defended the one point but not the overall service of Kerry.

Re; 1st PH: Even Kerry's own journal notes there was no "heat of battle" on the night he caught the shrapnel.(See Tour of Duty) What you should be questioning is WHY the award wasn't sought until after the participants had left and WHY it was submitted at all. I suggest you simply find any Vet or active duty member and ask them who they see first on entering sickbay and who usually treats them.

Your posts refer in several places to a NYT chart of connections which have been dismissed on virtually a point by point basis. Again, I feel your are simply posing that question to incite a heated debate because you've failed to continue the research that would have quickly found the following:

MoveOn.org <---> John Kerry and
<-----> Jane Fonda

Yes, a two way connection that dates back years. If you doubt my word, simply do a search on their site. You'll even find a letter from Kerry to the site encouraging their members. (Unless they've pulled it by now)

Please, do continue your questions. While not thought provoking they are enjoyable to answer since they are so easy to do so. They also provide a very good venue to summarize the research that is noted throughout this forum.
_________________
Why ask? Because it needs asking.

[NavyChief]

deleted

[LewWaters]

[Mary]

[Mary]

To Navy Chief --

Looks like I need to do some reading about PCF 51. Thanks, NavyChief. Sounds like the new articles you mention are coming out will be interesting.

[GoophyDog]

My appologies Mary. I misspoke should have said diligent.

I did not say any Vet would agree, I said ask a Vet or active duty who they see first in sickbay and who usually treats them.

A heated debate does not necessarily involve a "holler"ing match, simply a highly polarized discussion between two opposing views.

I was surprised that the search option is now missing. I'm sure I saw it about three months ago. In any case, you can find some info here

I meant no insult whatsoever and if taken that way I again appologize. All of the questions you posed have been answered throughout this forum so surely you agree that they do not provoke more thought. As I stated, your questions offer an excellent venue to summarize.

Edited: I will take the personal tagging as an ultra-conservative to PM as I don't believe it has any bearing on this discussion area.
_________________
Why ask? Because it needs asking.

[Mary]

[Mary]

[Mary]

[NavyChief]

deleted

[RiflemanDD730]

Mary, reading your posts shows that you are honestly seeking the truth. Your questions are detailed and the truth is in the details so your persistence is well founded. Sometimes I find it helpful get an overview of a subject. Focusing only on documentation and not conflicting opinions, I listed John Kerry’s positions to determine his credibility. This was not done to discredit him but to show to some media outlets that the SBVT deserved a hearing and should not be summarily dismissed as liars while Kerry is automatically accepted as truthful.

1) Christmas in Cambodia......... Kerry made this claim first in a 1979 film review for the Boston Herald. In 1986 as a Senator in a debate on foreign policy, he put his personal integrity on the line calling for the President of the US (Reagan) not to lie to the public as President Johnson had done but to believe him when he said he was in Cambodia. As you know, he said this was “seared” in his memory. This claim was made to the media in 1992 and1994 and to the Senate again in 1997. An affidavit by Steven Gardner forced Kerry to admit its fraudulence.

2) Alston wounded on Kerry’s boat...... Kerry’s website described David Alston as being on Kerry’s boat and part of Kerry’s crew when he was wounded. A complaint made by Tedd Peck, the actual boat commander at the time, forced Kerry to remove this claim from their website along with 20 other pages as reported in the Boston Globe in late April.

3) First Purple Heart.......... No casualty report or after action report exist to justify this award as required.


4) Bronze Star rescue.........Kerry’s account of a rapid return (the man was in sight) to pick up a passenger that had fallen overboard is contradicted by the after action report that states that hostile fire existed for 5000 meters (3 miles). At top speed the round trip would take at least 10 minutes. That means that all 5 boats would have been taking fire for the full 10 minutes before Kerry could pick up the passenger “under fire”. The rapid turnaround vs 3miles is the contradiction but the idea that 5 boats were taking fire for 10 minutes in a narrow channel and getting no bullet holes defies logic to the extreme.

5) Murdering US Senators............. After Vietnam, Kerry denied that he had been at a meeting in Kansas City when fellow protesters voted on a plan to assassinate pro war Senators. FBI documents released this year show that he was there. Kerry now says he can’t remember voting on murder.

6) Military record release............. Kerry said he released his records to Tim Russert, Chris Mathews, and Don Imus. The Navy just recently announced that he did not. He has not processed SF 180 that would authorize the release.


As you can see Kerry has a serious problem with the truth. These items refer to documents, public statements that are documented or lack of required documents. No conflicting opinions. This analysis told me that the SBVT deserve a chance to make their case against a man with this pattern of fraudulence.

[/b]

[Mary]