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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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 Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| docford wrote: | It looks like fortdixlover and I were working on responses at the same time. I defer to superior knowledge and experience.
THe bottom line is - as my daughter would say, "Kerry is a whining little dork." |
Did anyone ever ask Mr. Kerry if he smoked pot or used drugs? If not, they should. Mr. Clinton got asked that question. Wouldn't the mental fog and confusion caused by dtug abuse explain inconsistent and erratic memory and judgment deficits, such as opinions that change day to day?
-- FDL |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, shrapnel is not well-known to pass through the front of the leg and exiting the rear while only leaving a mark on the rear. Richochet doesn't seem too likely. It bothers me that the SIZE of the entry and shrapnel is not noted. What if the entry wound is 2 millimeters in length, and the "shrapnel" 1 mm in length? Small metallic fragments are dense and show up easily on X-ray. |
Good. That answered what I suspected but wanted others opinions.
| Quote: | | Impossible to tell. Exactly how much tissue was removed (debrided)? You debride your skin everyday - ever take the head off a pimple? |
Okay. eeeewww.
| Quote: | | A minute or less for minor wounds. |
Got it.
| Quote: | (4) Taking x-rays was standard practice for shrapnel, yes? How long would an x-ray for this wound take? What size x-ray machine would be needed to do this?
Standard unit used for general radiology would do it, same machine to take x-rays of bones etc. An x-ray would take a few minutes, mostly for positioning the patient, loading the film into its cannister, setting the x-ray beam level and time, and developing the film |
UPDATE: Kerry was taken to the Coast Guard Cutter, WACHUSETT but its xray machine wasn't working. They told him he needed to go to An Thoi. Kerry goes to An Thoi that evening and to sick call the following day. Problem is (little birdie says) "An Thoi doc wasn't there, only corpsmen. Kerry gets an x-ray done by the dental folks (is this likely???).
| Quote: | (5) Your thoughts on the thinking about leaving it there and not causing a "block excision of the wound"?
I suspect the "shrapnel" was very small, since it would take a lot of digging to find it. Tiny metal things show up great on xray, but visually it's much harder to see the little metal bits in a field of red! Likely they figured it wasn't worth the trouble to go on such a treasure hunt. If the "shrapnel" WAS big, it would be EASY to dig out for reasons above. |
If my above info is true, I can see why digging into his leg would have been a bad idea.
| Quote: | (6) Your thougts on "The wound was ultimately closed with sutures following debridement of necrotic tissue".
How many sutures? How much debridement? We don't get that information. And tissue necrosis (breakdown) happens when the tissue loses its blood flow. You ever cut yourself with a pen knife? Did the skin around the cut die off and turn black (necrotic) to any major degree? Is the "necrotic tissue" they are referrring to just congealed blood (scabs)? I'd like to see a more detailed report!
Mr. Kerry, sign that Form 180! |
Amen! Sign!
| Quote: | (7) Sutures is used in the plural. Guess of the minimum size of this wound?
"Closed with sutures" could refer to the METHOD, not the NUMBER OF SUTURES. OK - 1 suture - 1/2 centimeter wound. 2 sutures- 1 centimeter wound. Etcetera. Medical rule of thumb -- an adult thumb is about 2 centimeters wide! But without knowing the # of sutures, again the stated information leaves much to be desired. |
Got it.
| Quote: | (8. Timeline for the tissue to become "necrotic"? Hours? Minutes? Instant?
Hours. For any "necrosis" worth noting, you'd need to have skin that was completely separated from its blood supply (i.e., from surrounding skin). I think the "necrotic tissue" was lilkely what we would call "scabs." I've seen near-severed limbs that did not become necrotic for the time it took to transport to hospital and get to the O.R. for repair. See above. |
Would 3 hours from receiving shrapnel wound be enough time for any "necrosis" worth noting?
| Quote: | (9) Kerry was seen by medical aboard the SPENCER, but his casualty report was sent the next day by medical at An Thoi. Kerry had treatment twice. Any thoughts on this?
Checkup would be my guess. |
Right. If updated info correct, it explains it.
- Chief |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| fortdixlover wrote: | | docford wrote: | It looks like fortdixlover and I were working on responses at the same time. I defer to superior knowledge and experience.
THe bottom line is - as my daughter would say, "Kerry is a whining little dork." |
Did anyone ever ask Mr. Kerry if he smoked pot or used drugs? If not, they should. Mr. Clinton got asked that question. Wouldn't the mental fog and confusion caused by dtug abuse explain inconsistent and erratic memory and judgment deficits, such as opinions that change day to day?
-- FDL |
Is that why my memory sucks? 
- Chief |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | | fortdixlover wrote: | | docford wrote: | It looks like fortdixlover and I were working on responses at the same time. I defer to superior knowledge and experience.
THe bottom line is - as my daughter would say, "Kerry is a whining little dork." |
Did anyone ever ask Mr. Kerry if he smoked pot or used drugs? If not, they should. Mr. Clinton got asked that question. Wouldn't the mental fog and confusion caused by dtug abuse explain inconsistent and erratic memory and judgment deficits, such as opinions that change day to day?
-- FDL |
Is that why my memory sucks?
- Chief |
You know, maybe Mr. Kerry is NOT signing form 180 for reasons that have nothing to do with whether his wounds merited medals or not.
Maybe he is concealing SOMETHING ELSE - something different and more sinister, such as a medical incident or condition that would really put a big question mark on his suitability to be POTUS. 
-- FDL |
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docford
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:05 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, something involving more than non-specific urethritis? Maybe something that would require 4.8 million units or an RPR? Maybe a localized treatment with liquid nitrogen to a very sensitive area? You may be on to something.
_________________
Doc Ford
HMC (SW) USN |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Okay, here are the answers from a Independent Duty HMC who has not patched anyone in about 13 yrs. I welcome any corrections.
1. To get an entry wound on the back of the left thigh, Kerry would have had to be facing away from the blast. I would be interested to know the location of the wound, the angle of entry and depth of entry. That would tell whether he was ducking and covering, standing, etc., and how far he was from the blast. |
You know why I'm asking this, right? Kerry was wounded at 1400 (The same time as Thorson). Thorson was wounded in the right arm and Kerry behind the left leg in thigh. Thorson was manning the aft-gunners mount at the time. This would have placed Kerry in the same vicinity instead of at his battle station: Pilot House. What was Kerry doing back there? This was suppose to be a dangerous part of the river (if you believe he was wounded at the coordinates he says he was).
Also they supposedly spotted three men in black pajamas off the port side, ducking behind a bank. Then they received small arms fire and a B-40 rocket which supposedly wounded Kerry and Thorson. Then this means Kerry's swift boat was already past the three men and Kerry was facing away from the firefight or they stopped and Kerry still was facing away from the firefight. It wasn't likely they fought with these three men because it is not mentioned in the report AT ALL! No attempt to supress their fire - no attempt to take the fight to them. The report states that they saw them - took fire and got wounded - and left the area without further incident. It was only three VC versus a powerful swift boat. Are we really suppose to believe that it happened like that?
| Quote: | 2. When you debride a wound, you remove any foreign debris (dirt, clothing, etc.) and any necrotic non-vital tissue. If you leave a piece of shrapnel in place, you typically either pack the wound or place a drain in the wound, and allow it to heal by "secondary intention" which means without the use of sutures. You do this because, if there is anyhting left in the wound that is contaminated, and you suture the wound closed, the patient will develop an abcess and possibly blood poisoning. Bacitracin or Neosporin is placed on the wound, with a bandage.
The fact hat there is no mention of Iodoform packing or a drain tells me that the wound was superficial, probably no more than one inch deep.
The "burning" sensation does not necessarily mean that the shranel was hot. Patients get a burning sensation when nerves are severed, which happens with shrapnel wounds.
If the shrapnel was hot, this would cause some type of burn injury in the interior of the wound, which complicates recovery. Sometimes the tissue does not appear necrotic until several days after an interior burn. Here, it does not look like that was the case. The medical records indicate that this was a straightforward uncomplicated case. |
Right another superficial wound. Or was it a repeat of the 2 December incident?
| Quote: | | 5. Worrying about a block excision tells me that the shranel entered at an angle, probably meaning that Kerry was crouching, diving or lying down with his back to the blast. If shrapnel removal is going to make the wound, scar or tissue removal too extensive, you leave it in. This is a judgement call by the doctor. |
Angle -- had to be coming from above going down. If Kerry was prone, he had the cover of the gunwhale and not likely to catch shrapnel at a horizontal or bottom up (round hitting water and exploding up).
| Quote: | | 6. Placing sutures later? Very strange. Normally, if you can't suture within a very short period of time (certainly 24 hours or less) then you do not suture at all. Too much risk of infection, pocket formation, etc. |
Exactly. This would suggest the Cutter didn't have a working xray machine and Kerry's initial treatment was as stated, "topical dressing applied". The following day at An Thoi he gets an xray.
"The wound was ultimately closed with sutures following debridement of necrotic tissue".
They stitched him up the next day. Now, how long would those stitches in that wound cause him trouble? He supposedly was given two days light duty. That places it on 22 or 23 Feb 69. On 28 Feb 69, Kerry jumps from his swift boat and chases down a VC behind a hootch and shoots him. Would this wound have allowed that?
This is good stuff!
- Chief |
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docford
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Fortdixlover made a good point regarding the size of the shrapnel. Small pieces are very difficult to find in a red, bloody wound field. Looking for the shrapnel in order to remove it can sometimes lead to more tissue damage and greater injury or infection risk than if you just leave it in.
_________________
Doc Ford
HMC (SW) USN |
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The Ghost
Seaman
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:27 am Post subject: |
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NavyChief
which purple heart are you talking about ??
did he get a purple heart in the leg from blowing up the rice pile with his buddy ras ? or is this another one |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:32 am Post subject: |
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This is from the 20 Feb action
- Chief |
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Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| The Ghost wrote: | NavyChief
which purple heart are you talking about ??
did he get a purple heart in the leg from blowing up the rice pile with his buddy ras ? or is this another one |
The RICE wound in the BUTT is from the same day as the Bronze star incident.
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Herb |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:13 am Post subject: |
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| Herb wrote: | | The Ghost wrote: | NavyChief
which purple heart are you talking about ??
did he get a purple heart in the leg from blowing up the rice pile with his buddy ras ? or is this another one |
The RICE wound in the BUTT is from the same day as the Bronze star incident. |
You are correct, however this particular incident I'm asking questions about is the 20 Feb incident -- 2nd Purple Heart on the CUA LON river.
- Chief |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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<deleted by FDL - duplicate>
Last edited by fortdixlover on Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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nah, he let reporters look at his record real quick -- unless he pulled the paperwork before letting them see.
- Chief |
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Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="NavyChief"] | Herb wrote: |
You are correct, however this particular incident I'm asking questions about is the 20 Feb incident -- 2nd Purple Heart on the CUA LON river.
- Chief |
I don't think much is known about that incident -- but (I believe it is in "Tour of Duty") they were actually laying down supressive fire at a common ambush spot when miraculously they took fire, RPG the ubiquitious "close aboard" (in the water) and somehow Kerry gets a small piece in his leg.)
A week later he is running ashore so this is not much of a wound.
No one has explained how an RPG in the water puts scrapnel (and not much) into the boat so it hits a leg but no one higher in the body.
Kerry was shooting the M-79 if I remember correctly.
It really is worth reading "Tour of Duty" even if you only review the 'incident' passages.
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Herb |
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Hammer2
PO2
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 387
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Chief, if Kerry was firing the M-79 from a standing position, the side and rear of his left thigh would have been exposed to fragments from the exploding grenade.
See the standing firing position illustrated in FM 23-31.
Chapter 5, Section I. Preliminary Marksmanship Training, 5-1 Four Fundamentals of Marksmanship, (a)Steady Position, (8)Standing Position, Figure 5-8.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-31/f2331_6.htm#REF30h4
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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