SwiftVets.com

[openfish24]

http://www.insightmag.com/news/2004/04/13/Features/The-Insider-642982.shtml

[You Bic?]

Yep, Bush missing a couple of meetings of the Guard 30 years ago is a big story with the lying liberal media.

But Kerry attending a meeting with his buds where they discussed murdering US Senators has never been mentioned.

The Lying Liberal Media are really rotten and corrupt to the core!

[llano]

I hope this will be the next ad.
_________________
Home in Lubbock Texas, home of the Vietnam Project at Texas Tech University. A place visited frequently by Navy Chief.

[Harley90]

How Kerry Quit Veterans Group Amid Dark Plot

Posted on 03/12/2004 5:29:50 AM PST by veronica


When Talk Turned To Assassination He Exited, Vet Says

The anti-war group that John Kerry was the principal spokesman for debated and voted on a plot to assassinate politicians who supported the Vietnam War.

Mr. Kerry denies being present at the November 12-15, 1971, meeting in Kansas City of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, and says he quit the group before the meeting. But according to the current head of Missouri Veterans for Kerry, Randy Barnes, Mr. Kerry,who was then 27,was at the meeting, voted against the plot, and then orally resigned from the organization.

Mr. Barnes was present as part of the Kansas City host chapter for the 1971 meeting and recounted the incident in a phone interview with The New York Sun this week.

In addition to Mr. Barnes’s recollection placing Mr. Kerry at the Kansas City meeting, another Vietnam veteran who attended the meeting, Terry Du-Bose, said that Mr. Kerry was there.

There are at least two other independent corroborations that the antiwar group Vietnam Veterans Against the War, of which Mr. Kerry was the most prominent national spokesman, considered assassinating American political leaders who favored the war.

Gerald Nicosia’s 2001 book “Home To War” reports that one of the key leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Scott Camil,“proposed the assassination of the most hard-core conservative members of Congress,as well as any other powerful, intractable opponents of the antiwar movement.”The book reports on the Kansas City meeting at which Mr.Camil’s plan was debated and then voted down.

Mr. Nicosia’s book was widely praised by reviewers as varied as General Harold Moore, author of “We Were Soldiers”; Gloria Emerson, who had been a New YorkTimes reporter during the Vietnam War, and leftist Howard Zinn. Mr. Kerry himself stated in a blurb on the cover that the book “ties together the many threads of a difficult period.” Mr. Kerry hosted a party for the book in the Hart Senate Office Building that was televised on C-SPAN.

Another source is an October 20,1992, oral history interview of Scott Camil on file at the University of Florida Oral History Archive.In it,Mr.Camil speaks of his plan for an alternative to Mr. Kerry’s idea of symbolically throwing veterans’ medals over the fence onto the steps of the Capitol during the Dewey Canyon III demonstration in Washington in April of 1971.

“My plan was that, on the last day we would go into the [congressional] offices we would schedule the most hardcore hawks for last — and we would shoot them all,” Mr. Camil told the Oral History interviewer. “I was serious.”

In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history. He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerry’s presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly.

Mr. Camil was known to colleagues in the anti-war movement as “Scott the Assassin.” Mr. Camil told The New York Sun he got the name in Vietnam for “sneaking down to the Vietnamese villages at night and killing people.”

According to the Nicosia book and interviews with VVAW members who were involved, at theVietnamVeterans Against the War Kansas City leadership conference, Mr. Camil tried to put his plan into effect. He called together eight to 10 Marines to organize something he called “The Phoenix Project.” The original Phoenix Project during the Vietnam War was an attempt to destroy the Viet Cong leadership by assassination. Mr. Camil’s Phoenix Project planned to execute the Southern senatorial leadership that was financing the Vietnam War. Senators like John Stennis, Strom Thurmond, and John Tower were his targets, according to Mr. Camil. They were to be killed during the Senate Christmas recess the following month.

After an attempt to parcel out the hit jobs required to kill the senators, Mr. Camil’s plan was presented to all the chapter coordinators present and the VVAW leadership. Mr. Nicosia’s book recounts, “What Camil sketched was so explosive that the coordinators feared lest government agents even hear of it. So they decamped to a church on the outskirts of town with the intention of debating the plan in complete privacy.When they got to the church, however, they found that the government was already on to them; their ‘debugging expert’ uncovered microphones hidden all over the place. An instantaneous decision was made to move again to Common Ground, a Mennonite hall used by homeless vets as a ‘crash pad.’”

“Camil was deadly serious, brilliant, and highly logical,” Mr. Nicosia told the Sun.

The plan was voted down. There’s a difference of opinion as to how narrow the margin was.

The claims of Mr. Kerry’s involvement in the assassination discussions in Kansas City have apparently not been previously reported.

The most recent book that focuses on Mr. Kerry’s relations with his fellow Vietnam veterans, Douglas Brinkley’s “Tour of Duty,” reports the events as follows: “In a November 10 letter housed at the VVAW papers in Madison,Wisconsin, Kerry quit, politely noting he had been proud to serve in the national organization. His reason was straightforward: ‘personality conflicts and differences in political philosophy.’ In two days,VVAW was meeting in Kansas City and he would be a noshow.”

But in a footnote, Mr. Brinkley acknowledges,“I could not locate Kerry’s November 10 VVAW resignation letter supposedly housed at the Wisconsin archives. The quote I used comes directly from Andrew E. Hunt’s essential ‘The Turning: A History of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (1999).”

When asked by the Sun who told him Mr. Kerry was “no-show” at Kansas City, Mr. Brinkley replied, “Senator Kerry.” Mr. Brinkley also stated that Mr. Kerry did not have a personal copy of the resignation letter either.

But in an interview with the Sun, the “essential” historian Mr. Brinkley relied on as his source, Andrew E. Hunt, said “I never stated that there was a letter of resignation, or even implied in my book that I saw one. I never could find one in the archives in Wisconsin. I don’t know how Brinkley got the idea that I had. I never could figure out when Kerry resigned.” When asked about Mr. Brinkley’s statement that Mr. Kerry didn’t have a copy of the resignation letter either, Mr. Hunt said, “I don’t know about that. I never could get an interview with Senator Kerry. But I never saw anyone who saves things the way Kerry does.”

Whether or not there was a letter of resignation dated November 10 is obviously important, since it predates the Kansas City assassination discussions by two days.

Mr. Camil said he did not recall whether Mr. Kerry was at the Kansas City meeting nor did he recall whether he had discussed his assassination plan with Mr. Kerry.

But Mr. Barnes, the head of the Missouri Veterans for Kerry, said, “I don’t think there was a letter of resignation. He just said he was resigning after the vote.”

Clearly there is considerable confusion about the time of Mr. Kerry’s resignation.According to Mr. Nicosia,“He resigned from the executive committee” after a spectacular argument with VVAW leader Al Hubbard at the July national leadership meeting in St Louis.

But on behalf of the John Kerry campaign, spokesman David Wade told the Sun yesterday that Mr. Kerry resigned from Vietnam Veterans Against the War “sometime in the summer of 1971 after the August meeting in St. Louis, which Kerry did not attend.”

Mr.Wade also said,“Kerry was not at the Kansas City meeting.”

Two-thirds of the American troops in Vietnam at the height of American commitment in 1969 had already been withdrawn in the “Vietnamization” policy in effect at the time of the VVAW Kansas City conference in November 1971. When asked recently by the Sun why the assassinations still seemed necessary, Mr. Camil replied: “The war was still going on. We had to stop it.”

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

[mangdawg]

a question has bugged me every sice i heard the Scott Camil story-

why was he never brought up on charges of conspiracy to commit murder? being Senators were envolved, that would make it a Fed crime.

he clearly did that offense. seems Kerry could have been charged with conspiracy also.
what did i miss?

[GoophyDog]

Conspiracy relies on one item missing from that meeting - the actual act or attempt.
_________________
Why ask? Because it needs asking.

[lovetropicana]

[mangdawg]

[FreeFall]

I think it depends on the state and the law in force at the time. However, the Supreme Court, in 1994, said that just talking about a conspiracy can be a crime.

Conspiracy is the act of working in secret to obtain some goal, usually understood with negative connotations. In United States v. Shabani (1994) the US Supreme Court ruled: "...Congress intended to adopt the common law definition of conspiracy, which does not make the doing of any act other than the act of conspiring a condition of liability..." This ruling indicates that conspiracy, without any further action, can be criminal. Note that a "conspiracy", as a legal term in the US, does not always require more than one person. There are, in many nations, explicit crimes of conspiracy to commit murder et cetera.

This came from this site:
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Conspiracy

[Hondo]

FreeFall:

I don't believe that you are correct in your interpretation. What the case you cite is saying is that it is not necessary for each individual to do something to be convicted of conspiracy; a given individual can be convicted on the basis of participating in discussion alone. However, someone involved in the conspiracy MUST do something overt, or you don't have conspiracy. Mere discussion is not enough if it never progresses beyond the discussion stage and no one takes an overt action to further the conspiracy's goals.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. However, I have taken courses in law, albiet some years ago. For what it's worth, one of these courses was a course in military criminal law. What follows is from memory, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct here.

If I remember correctly, one of the elements required to prove conspiracy is an overt act done to further the conspiracy's goals. The overt act does not have to be the commission of the crime discussed; something such as renting a hotel room for further meetings, purchasing supplies to support the proposed crime, or performing recon at the site of the proposed crime may well be enough. The crime need never be committed for conspiracy to be proven. However, if any person commits even one overt act, theoretically all conspirators are at risk. Only a single such overt act is required to place all conspirators in "deep dudu" regarding risk of prosecution. I'm not even sure that an individual needs to know that the overt act has occurred to be at risk of prosecution.

Also, assuming I recall correctly, the statute of limitations for conspiracy is tied to that of the crime that is the focus of the conspiracy. I don't believe that murder has a statue of limitations in any jurisdiction in the United States.

Dropping out of the conspiracy near the beginning might be a defense against prosecution for conspiracy. However, I'm not sure that will fly as a defence regarding possible prosecution as an accessory (for failure to report the conspiracy to cognizant authorities). Again, if I recall correctly the statute of limitations for prosecution as an accessory is also tied to that of the original crime, in this case conspiracy to commit murder.

Not sure about federal criminality. Sometime after one of the Kennedy assassinations, murder of selected Federal officials first became Federal crimes (at the time of John Kennedy's assassination, the only thing that Oswald could have been prosecuted for was murder - by the state of Texas; his actions in 1963 had broken no federal law). Not sure which officials are covered, or precisely when this law became effective. Late 60s or early 70s, I think, but it could have been earlier.

What intrigues me is that, if there is any proof that someone in the VVFW actually did ANYTHING OVERT along these lines - say, cased Senate or other government offices in DC sometime after the meeting, perhaps? - then we may well have something here that meets the legal definition of conspiracy to murder federal officials. If in fact conspiracy to commit murder has the same statute of limitations as the crime that is the subject of the conspiracy, then Johnny Boy may well still be at risk for investigation and/or prosecution - whether or not the crime was ever carried out - as either a conspirator or an accessory to the conspiracy.

Any lawyers out there want to weigh in on the legality (as opposed to the political feasibility) of the above?
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[FreeFall]

Hello Hondo, thank you for the explanation. If they cased the buildings where the assassinations were to take place, would that be an overt act?

[Hondo]

FreeFall:

Caveat: I'm not a lawyer.

IMO it damn sure would be if it happened after the meeting where the plot was first discussed.

I doubt it would hold up as such if the recon was before the meeting. A good lawyer would argue - IMO successfully - that the others could not be held responsible for acts that occurred BEFORE the first meeting at which they were present and the proposed crime was discussed.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[FreeFall]

Hondo, I found this over at Free Republic.


Here is what I have found in FBI files re: VVAW and John Kerry
FBI Files on Vietnam Veterans Against the War and John Kerry | Various dates | FBI files


Posted on 08/27/2004 8:40:38 AM PDT by stockpirate


What the FBI files and history of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, (VVAW) reveal about, VVAW and John Kerry:

1. VVAW Plan to assassinate seven US senators.

2. VVAW was training to execute a Phoenix plan to decapitate the leaders of the US Government.

3. Member of VVAW arrested in-route to VP Agnew speech with an explosive device (BOMB).

4. VVAW running guns to a black militant group in Cairo IL. Use link 12 page 131, also same as link 10..

5. VVAW funded by Communist party of America.

6. VVAW receiving funds from the Communist Party of a country in Europe.

7. VVAW taking directions from the North Vietnamese Communist Government.

8. VVAW sent tapes to NV to be played to our POW's being held by the communists.

9. VVAW sent its members on several occasions to Hanoi and Moscow to be indoctrinated by the Communists.

10. FBI files indicate that Kerry only resigned from the executive committee of the VVAW at the Kansas City meeting.

Link to FBI files concerning Nov. 1971 VVAW meeting, go to page 190 for FBI report. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/fbifiles/100-HQ-448092/Section%2011/Section%2011.pdf

11. FBI files indicate there was concern about a possible assassination attempt on President Nixon in FL. Go to page 10-13. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/fbifiles/100-HQ-448092/Section%2013/Section%2013.pdf

12. Plan by members of VVAW to assassinate two (birch and Hubbard) of the national leaders of VVAW reported from the Pittsburgh PA FBI office. Page 68 http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/fbifiles/100-HQ-448092/Section%2013/Section%2013.pdf

13. VVAW had a plan to kidnap US leaders and hold them for ransom to force US to withdraw out troops from Vietnam. Not unlike the terrorist today!

14. On 1/21/72 some VVAW members had a meeting with William C. Frey who stated that is was associated with Revolutionary movements in South America. Mr. Frey was eventually expelled from. Guatemala for being a “Communist.” http://www.tesm.edu/pubs/sh/2003/1/hopedance/view?searchterm=Frey

15. Jan. 27, 1972 VVAW Gainesville FL regional coordinator indicted on two counts of kidnapping for ransom. Camil’s arrest triggers alert to Secret Service. Same link as number 12 page 71.

16. March 1972 FBI memo covers VVAW letter addressed to the UN requesting UN mediation in Vietnam and to meet with VVAW representatives. Same link as 12 page 114.

17. VVAW member Mark Ciel arrested in act of throwing a firebomb, convicted 1/31/72. Same as 12 page 134.

18. VVAW member Al Hubbard attends Paris peace talks with unidentified member of “Communist Party, USA” and CPUSA paid for his trip, per Hubbard’s admission. Same link as 12, page 134.

19. November 1971 meeting, “revolutionary statements advocating violence which were generally accepted by VVAW representatives in attendance. Meeting re: assassinate seven US senators discussed. Use link 12, page 131,132.

20. John Kerry resigned the executive committee to become the National Leader of the VVAW! Use link 12, page 134.

21. February 14,1972 due to the increase of “subversive involvement by VVAW”, with John Kerry as its National Leader, Director of the FBI orders increased development of informants. FBI document states ”Recent VVAW activities clearly indicate ever-increasing militant posture.” ………”incidents of arms stockpiling and arms transportation on part of VVAW members,…” Use link 12, page 161- 165.

22. FBI's files on the VVAW mention that an informant learned on 4/12/71, "the VVAW had received $50,000 from Senators McGovern and Hatfield”. The democrats are helping finance VVAW. (100-HQ-448092, Section 2, p. 199)

23. FBI files indicate time and time again that the VVAW has close connections with various radical/communist groups bent on destroying the United States. Such groups as; Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), Socialist Workers Party (SWP), Young Socialist Organizer (YSO), YSO per its masthead, “A multinational revolutionary socialist youth organization.” “The SWP has been designated pursuant to Executive Order 10450.” Page 11 http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/fbifiles/100-HQ-448092/Section%2014/Section%2014.pdf

And I found an article that proves Kerry was still with the VVAW as a leader as late as Feb. 1972.

LINK

The link to this page over at Freerepublic is:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1200950/posts

[Hondo]

To quote Alice: "Curiouser and curiouser!"

The bomb smuggling incident, if tied to one of the plotters, might well qualify as the overt act necessary to establish conspiracy. If the idiot caught with the bomb wasn't at or associated with anyone at the meeting, the well is probably dry - so far.

At this point, we really need a lawyer to look over the facts here.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill