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Morto
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 29 May 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
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 Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig wrote: | | DevilDon wrote: | Some might also say that your previous post was lacking any kind of coherent thought whatsoever? Might you engage us with your real thinking on the idea of prison guards? Nobody I know in "corrections" has EVER thought of themselves or been referred to as "cops".
I have to wonder if you think at all before you blather on these pages. Please research your work, repost and be respected for an average Joe, as it is, you're mindless. |
Sorry I did not articulate well.
"things" was as in "objects" Things are not persons.
I get the impression that you have not known anyone in corrections. But again I dunno how one might think of his self but 'cop' is not considered a disrespectful term. Maybe you just watched too much Jack Web Bullcrap. |
Craig,
Here's a copy of my PM to the Administrator. Bye Bye you vacuous twit.
| Quote: | You really need to ban "craig" from this board. On boards like America's Debate he would have been gone permanently after his 2nd post.
The guy is rude, crude, and his language and personal attacks are best suited to a biker bar. Will you please get rid of this REMF?
Some modicum of civility is necessary here or you'll just chase Vets away and our message won't get out.
Morto |
_________________
"History tells us that appeasement does not lead to peace. It invites an aggressor to test the will of a nation unprepared to meet that test." --Ronald Reagan |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Morto wrote: | | Craig wrote: | | DevilDon wrote: | Some might also say that your previous post was lacking any kind of coherent thought whatsoever? Might you engage us with your real thinking on the idea of prison guards? Nobody I know in "corrections" has EVER thought of themselves or been referred to as "cops".
I have to wonder if you think at all before you blather on these pages. Please research your work, repost and be respected for an average Joe, as it is, you're mindless. |
Sorry I did not articulate well.
"things" was as in "objects" Things are not persons.
I get the impression that you have not known anyone in corrections. But again I dunno how one might think of his self but 'cop' is not considered a disrespectful term. Maybe you just watched too much Jack Web Bullcrap. |
Craig,
Here's a copy of my PM to the Administrator. Bye Bye you vacuous twit.
| Quote: | You really need to ban "craig" from this board. On boards like America's Debate he would have been gone permanently after his 2nd post.
The guy is rude, crude, and his language and personal attacks are best suited to a biker bar. Will you please get rid of this REMF?
Some modicum of civility is necessary here or you'll just chase Vets away and our message won't get out.
Morto |
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Interesting.
Did you send along examples of what I might have responded to that you objected to my response?
Chase Vets away? Have you followed the response of posting of Doug Reese?
What is your ideal for this forum? Would you prefer it to be just a swap 'attaboys' and see who can come up with the most clever slander and it go unchallenged?
Have you taken note of who it is who so often will take something off topic and into personal attack? Or maybe you figure it to be just the privilege of the right wing elite to resort to invective and it be rude to respond in kind?
Yup - I certainly know of moderated forums where some of my posts would be deleted. Just about every one that they responded to would be deleted also. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:12 am Post subject: |
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Just the fact that craig has posted here and he is not a Vet is enough in my book.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | Just the fact that craig has posted here and he is not a Vet is enough in my book. |
I take it that Administrator was satisfied that what I sent him was something more difficult to forge than a DD-214
So far you have offered that you are quite dishonest about having been a Correctional Officer in California.
You demeanor has set me to wonder if you are even old enough to join the Navy with your mommies permission. - Well, last I knew the Navy would take 17 year olds. Maybe they raised their standards by now. ??
LOL - You are such a silly person who cannot even spell what you claim your occupation was - "gaurd" - just a typo without variation a half dozen time or so. Give me a break, you silly wannabe.
Cracked me up when you claim to have worked at Folsom and been gone when they were building the new prison. I speak of upper yard and whoever was feeding you crap assumed that had something to do with the new prison.And no one ever says "fishline" - it is just a line. And it is not used just a whole lot other than intake places like one that you expressed not knowing squat about but what you read. DVI has a lot more just passin' thought every year than there are long term residents.
Anyway. I gotta find my can of Legoff. Scoot you silly pup.  |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: B-40 rockets |
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| redhawk34 wrote: |
-Note on the B-40, this was a Chinese copy of the Soviet RPG. There were two versions, the RPG-2 and the RPG-7. The -2 burned all its propellant in the tube, and was pretty useless much over 30 meters. The -7 had a sustainer rocket which ignited a few meters downrange, which extended its range to perhaps 100 meters. This came with a downside, as the projectile would weathervane into any wind, and the rocket would push it UPWIND, unlike any other projectile. It took a lot of training to make an PRG-7 gunner, and Charles didn't "waste" rounds, hand carried down the trail, in training. Opening the range, even 20 meters, could make the weapon, in untrained VC hands, pretty ineffective. Thank God for this, as they fired six of the damn things at me in an ambush on the Song Buong, and missed astern with all of them. There was a 20 kt wind from astern.
-Sorry, nothing I see above changes my opinion that this was a John Wayne "Glory Stunt." There were many other preferrable options, and Kerry is lucky Charles didn't have him for lunch, and maybe his boat, too.
I stand by my comments on Kerry's subsequent activities.
Redhawk 34 |
The sites I've checked all indicate a potential 300-500 meter effective range for a B-40 including some sites providing examples of damage caused by B-40's fired from that distance. We had a mess hall(2/503 I believe) hit by a B-40. LZ English itself was probably about 500 meters in diameter, but I don't know how far inside the perimeter the mess hall was. Although considering that the officer's section was hit, I cannot say for sure if it was enemy fire.
I believe you're right about the accuracy problem though.
Kerry's probably fortunate that he was dealing with VC rather than NVA. See the account at the following site about a wounded NVA facing armor.
http://home.earthlink.net/~wgal/apr19b.htm
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:20 am Post subject: Re: B-40 rockets |
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| jalexson wrote: | | redhawk34 wrote: |
-Note on the B-40, this was a Chinese copy of the Soviet RPG. There were two versions, the RPG-2 and the RPG-7. The -2 burned all its propellant in the tube, and was pretty useless much over 30 meters. The -7 had a sustainer rocket which ignited a few meters downrange, which extended its range to perhaps 100 meters. This came with a downside, as the projectile would weathervane into any wind, and the rocket would push it UPWIND, unlike any other projectile. It took a lot of training to make an PRG-7 gunner, and Charles didn't "waste" rounds, hand carried down the trail, in training. Opening the range, even 20 meters, could make the weapon, in untrained VC hands, pretty ineffective. Thank God for this, as they fired six of the damn things at me in an ambush on the Song Buong, and missed astern with all of them. There was a 20 kt wind from astern.
-Sorry, nothing I see above changes my opinion that this was a John Wayne "Glory Stunt." There were many other preferrable options, and Kerry is lucky Charles didn't have him for lunch, and maybe his boat, too.
I stand by my comments on Kerry's subsequent activities.
Redhawk 34 |
The sites I've checked all indicate a potential 300-500 meter effective range for a B-40 including some sites providing examples of damage caused by B-40's fired from that distance. We had a mess hall(2/503 I believe) hit by a B-40. LZ English itself was probably about 500 meters in diameter, but I don't know how far inside the perimeter the mess hall was. Although considering that the officer's section was hit, I cannot say for sure if it was enemy fire.
I believe you're right about the accuracy problem though.
Kerry's probably fortunate that he was dealing with VC rather than NVA. See the account at the following site about a wounded NVA facing armor.
http://home.earthlink.net/~wgal/apr19b.htm |
For what it's worth, and for those unfamiliar with the area -- we didn't have any NVA. . . . . . . . fortunately.
Doug |
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redhawk34
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 83
Location: Joisey, Ya gotta Problem Wit Dat?
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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"The sites I've checked all indicate a potential 300-500 meter effective range for a B-40 "
Yeah, Brassey's shows 100M for the RPG2, 500 for the RPG7. It may fly that far, but it would have the trajectory of a howitzer. The ranges I used are the distances I actually say Mr. Charles hit something at.
Doug,
The VC in our AO were virtually exterminated in Tet '68. We got boucoup NVA thereafter. VERY competent and dedicated. The guy who triggered the 90mm recoilless which sank my boat had to know he wasn't going to live another 30 seconds, but he put his second round within 20 inches of his first, while under heavy fire, including two fifties at about 75 meters.
I always laugh at the argument that epithets "dehumanize" the enemy, making it easier to kill him, as if the fact that he was trying his best to kill me wasn't enough. We held Mr. Charles in high respect.
In Germany in '67, we referred to "Limeys", "Frogs", and "Krauts". Why would we bother dehumanizing our allies? (except the Frogs, of course) In fact, around Hanau am Main, the term for Germans was "Rads", from their word for bicycle. I've never heard it since.
Redhawk |
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redhawk34
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 83
Location: Joisey, Ya gotta Problem Wit Dat?
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm, double post.
Redhawk |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| redhawk34 wrote: |
Doug,
The VC in our AO were virtually exterminated in Tet '68. We got boucoup NVA thereafter. VERY competent and dedicated. The guy who triggered the 90mm recoilless which sank my boat had to know he wasn't going to live another 30 seconds, but he put his second round within 20 inches of his first, while under heavy fire, including two fifties at about 75 meters.
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In the area I just left (when I was with the 9th Div, just south of Saigon), they tell me that was the case -- NVA all over the place months after Tet. But by then I was an advisor, and waaay further south.
Down in An Xuyen Province, they never had NVA, and that extends to this day. There's something about that place -- I think it's a combination of the fact that no one wants to go down there (something about mosquitoes), and the fact that the locals don't want any outsiders around, and that especially extends to northerners.
The upside for those who were there was that we didn't have to deal much with higher-ups visiting (one exception being John Paul Vann), and there was a tendency for the VC we met to be local and relatively poorly equipped.
Doug |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
I've always said that with the distance between the VC and Kerry's boat, that B-40 had all the capability of a baseball bat or a spear. It could have done more damage being used as either instead of it's intended purpose.
Doug |
Keep in mind that the B-40 is designed as an armor penetrating round. That means it had to be fired with sufficient force to at least partly pentrate the armor before exploding. It's physical shape and composition are also factors. A projectile capable of penetrating armor would have easily pentrated what is essentially an oversized aluminum can particularly at such a short distance.
| redhawk34 wrote: | "The sites I've checked all indicate a potential 300-500 meter effective range for a B-40 "
Yeah, Brassey's shows 100M for the RPG2, 500 for the RPG7. It may fly that far, but it would have the trajectory of a howitzer. The ranges I used are the distances I actually say Mr. Charles hit something at.
Redhawk |
I agree on the accuracy. What I heard was that Charlie was accurate with mortars, but not with rockets. However, when firing at a large enough collection of buildings, tents, etc. accuracy wasn't necessarily an issue Charlie needed to worry about. Accuracy was only important when dealing with the primary targets like APC's or swift boats.
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| jalexson wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
I've always said that with the distance between the VC and Kerry's boat, that B-40 had all the capability of a baseball bat or a spear. It could have done more damage being used as either instead of it's intended purpose.
Doug |
Keep in mind that the B-40 is designed as an armor penetrating round. That means it had to be fired with sufficient force to at least partly pentrate the armor before exploding. It's physical shape and composition are also factors. A projectile capable of penetrating armor would have easily pentrated what is essentially an oversized aluminum can particularly at such a short distance.
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You and I know that. Did he?
And while we're talking about this, what do you think about firing it at a distance of 10 ft? He was as close as that.
Then again, the reason he didn't fire may have nothing to do with whether or not it would have been effective.
Doug |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
You and I know that. Did he?
And while we're talking about this, what do you think about firing it at a distance of 10 ft? He was as close as that.
Then again, the reason he didn't fire may have nothing to do with whether or not it would have been effective.
Doug |
I haven't been able to find any info on firing at close range other than the possibility of the person firing getting hit by shrapnel.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was a raw recruit whose training consisted of being shown how to operate a B-40 launcher. the Boston Globe lists him as a teenager, but I don't know how effective we were at estimating their ages. If he had a rocket he may not have known what to do in that situation. He was expecting a boat in the water and then it appears right on his doorstep. He might not have thought of firing at an angle to hit what I think is called the pilot house and then dropping to the ground. Was he directly in front of the bow or off to one side?
Of course if he had popped out of his hole a second earlier, he might have been more likely to fire. I don't know how fast the boat might have been going at that point, but 15mph = 22 feet/second.
Also we weren't the only ones to have problems with our weapons. He may have had a defective rocket or launcher. A spider hole that close to a stream would likely have been very damp which might have hampered firing. Water or mud could have gotten into the mechanism.
At the place I was initially stationed we had a guard tower on top of a bunker. They put chain link type fencing around the bunker for some reason(which I've now forgotten) related to B-40 rockets. On most explosive shells detonation occurs when the tip hits something. Do you know if the B-40 might detonate when the wider portion of the rocket hit something? Such an arrangement would allow the tip to penetrate armor before detonation behind it forced the shrapnel into the interior. If that is the case then hitting the fencing would detonate the rocket before it hit the bunker.
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| jalexson wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
You and I know that. Did he?
And while we're talking about this, what do you think about firing it at a distance of 10 ft? He was as close as that.
Then again, the reason he didn't fire may have nothing to do with whether or not it would have been effective.
Doug |
I haven't been able to find any info on firing at close range other than the possibility of the person firing getting hit by shrapnel.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was a raw recruit whose training consisted of being shown how to operate a B-40 launcher. the Boston Globe lists him as a teenager, but I don't know how effective we were at estimating their ages. If he had a rocket he may not have known what to do in that situation. He was expecting a boat in the water and then it appears right on his doorstep. He might not have thought of firing at an angle to hit what I think is called the pilot house and then dropping to the ground. Was he directly in front of the bow or off to one side?
Of course if he had popped out of his hole a second earlier, he might have been more likely to fire. I don't know how fast the boat might have been going at that point, but 15mph = 22 feet/second.
Also we weren't the only ones to have problems with our weapons. He may have had a defective rocket or launcher. A spider hole that close to a stream would likely have been very damp which might have hampered firing. Water or mud could have gotten into the mechanism.
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Yes, the Globe had him as a teenager, and he probably was, or at least close. I guessed one guy's age -- said he was a teenager -- and was just barely correct, as he was a month or two from being 20. The guys who were killed that day ranged from 18-19 up to 34 years of age.
At that age, and in that area, he couldn't have had much experience, although he probably had more than the others, who were very much local guerillas. He (and I'm referring to the B-40 guy) was a member of a Liberation Army unit. This was sort of was like him being a regular army person, as opposed to the others being National Guard.
Keep in mind that Kerry's boat passed in front of him, then came back around. The hole he was in was supported by one of those big ceramic vases, but that isn't to say it was dry. I don't remember that, just the vase inside the hole.
Anyway, he was either directly in front of the boat when it beached, or just a bit off to the right.
We'll never know what was going thru his mind, other than the shock of seeing the boats on the canal, compounded by seeing one (the 23 boat) stop, and then have soldiers get off. I would think he was aware of that, although just for a few seconds.
Then, as if that wasn't enough, the 94 boat is suddenly at his doorstep.
While I only saw the B-40 guy after he was killed, I saw some of the other VC just before that, while they were alive. I saw one up-close-and-personal, so to speak, and saw in his eyes what the 94 boat people (the 2-3 of them who were at the front of the boat) probably saw in the eyes of the B-40 guy. It's something that sticks with you, and to a degree defies description.
Anyway, we'll never know much about him, as he wasn't local like the other guys, who lived right there. The survivors -- local guys -- weren't in a good position to see what was going on with the B-40 guy. For that matter, they don't even know his name.
Doug |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:19 am Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote:
> While I only saw the B-40 guy after he was killed, I saw some of the other
> VC just before that, while they were alive. I saw one
> up-close-and-personal, so to speak, and saw in his eyes what the 94 boat
> people (the 2-3 of them who were at the front of the boat) probably saw in
> the eyes of the B-40 guy. It's something that sticks with you, and to a
> degree defies description.
Tell us Reese, where was the body found in relation of the PCF-94 and the Hootch/lean-to? |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | DougReese wrote:
> While I only saw the B-40 guy after he was killed, I saw some of the other
> VC just before that, while they were alive. I saw one
> up-close-and-personal, so to speak, and saw in his eyes what the 94 boat
> people (the 2-3 of them who were at the front of the boat) probably saw in
> the eyes of the B-40 guy. It's something that sticks with you, and to a
> degree defies description.
Tell us Reese, where was the body found in relation of the PCF-94 and the Hootch/lean-to? |
If you're going to use "Reese", then make it Mr. Reese. Otherwise, I'd prefer Doug, either of which I consider polite.
I was thinking of you when I wrote this, and you looking all around to see where some of the info I mentioned in this most recent post was located -- if it was located elsewhere, and how it stacks up.
Let me give you an answer so you can get back to searching.
The body was next to the lean-to.
From PCF-94, go a few steps straight ahead, then take a left and go, ohh, I'd say 30-40 ft or more -- then you'd come to the lean-to and the body.
Happy searching!
Doug |
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