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Denis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 48
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:47 pm Post subject: Size of a bullet....say what? |
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From the New York Times on Kerry’s medical records:
| Quote: | | However, CT scan X-rays taken at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston document that two pieces of metal shrapnel are embedded deep in Mr. Kerry's left thigh, next to the femur, said Dr. Gerald J. Doyle, Mr. Kerry's personal physician in Boston who reviewed the X-rays at the request of this reporter, who is a physician. Doctors treating the wound in 1969 decided to leave the shrapnel in place. "One piece of shrapnel is about the size of a bullet, the other a bit smaller," Dr. Doyle said. |
Source
Anybody else get a whiff of phoney in that?
First the obvious: size of what kind of bullet, as there is a vast diffeence in size, multiples even, betwen a .22 short and a .50 cal round from a machine gun! But the second point is more glaring: what are two physicians doing uses a phrase like ‘size of a bullet’? I’ve had many reasons over the years to be cut by physicians, parts removed, incisions made, as has my wife, who also worked in a veterinary office for over a dozen years assisting at surgeries....
...and physicians don’t use terminologies like ‘size of a bullet’. What is meant by that: length, width, diameter?
I am used to physicians using terms like centimeter and millimeter for measurments, not ‘size of...’! How long were these pieces of shrapnel, in millimeters or centimeters? What was the width or diameter, in millimeters or centimeters? Were they flat or round? Were they shaped like the shrapnel produced by a hand grenade?
This just smells, and the allusion made by using a phrase like ‘size of a bullet’ is blatant conjuring of something not even claimed by Kerry, but that does paint a heroic picture!
Denis |
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ccr
Commander
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 325
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Also, no one has ever asserted that Kerry was actually SHOT.
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| If he had something as large as they make it sound he would have been layed up for awhile after he was injured. It doesn't sound right and why don't they just release the xrays? |
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Denis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 48
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kmudd wrote: | | It doesn't sound right and why don't they just release the xrays? |
Because if those pieces of metal fit that produced by a grenade, as in, the grenade that Kerry admits he threw and that blistered his own backside earlier in the day that Rassman was pulled from the Bay Hap river, then Purple Heart #3 was a phony, and Kerry falsified reports claiming he was injured by shrapnel from an enemy mine.
That is why it is so striking that two physicians are purosely not using the regular medical terminologies of centimeter/millimeter and length, width and diameter to describe them! That has to have been prearranged.
Denis |
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Tad Belknap
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 49
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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implants.... 
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95th Evac. Hosp. Danang
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Denis wrote: | | kmudd wrote: | | It doesn't sound right and why don't they just release the xrays? |
Because if those pieces of metal fit that produced by a grenade, as in, the grenade that Kerry admits he threw and that blistered his own backside earlier in the day that Rassman was pulled from the Bay Hap river, then Purple Heart #3 was a phony, and Kerry falsified reports claiming he was injured by shrapnel from an enemy mine.
That is why it is so striking that two physicians are purosely not using the regular medical terminologies of centimeter/millimeter and length, width and diameter to describe them! That has to have been prearranged.
Denis |
Yes that must be it. It sounds like the NYT reporter has the xray since they said they had the doctor review the xray.And we all know if they had an xray on Bush they would not hold it back if releasing it would hurt Bush then the NYT has proven once again they can't be trusted. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I fail to see how having two pieces of shrapnel left over in his thigh that size would result in his being returned to duty immediately. Anything that size surely would have resulted in his staying in the hospital for some time and most likely walking with a limp, at least for a short time afterwards.
Some weeks ago we discussed how they would most likely phoney up some Xrays after his claim he still walked around with shrapnel in his leg. Looks like they have, as expected.
Now, the next thing I'd like to know is if he has ever claimed to have shrapnel embedded in his leg before? In all the reading I've done, I've never seen the claim before now.
In all, smells to high heaven.
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kmudd
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 825
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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The following says one was only two millimetter sized.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37922-2004Apr23.html
On Feb. 20, 1969, Kerry was hit by what the records describe as a two-
millimeter-square piece of "B-40 shrapnel." Faced with the difficulty of
removing the metal, Navy physicians simply left it where it was, and the
wound closed up without infection.
Three weeks later, Kerry was injured again. The record reads: "In firefight
approx 3 hours ago, pt was a) thrown against bulkhead sustaining injury
(contusion) to R forearm. b) sustained small piece of shrapnel in L upper
buttock."
Doyle said that because he was not the attending physician for any of
the injuries, he could not characterize their severity. But he said the
third incident was "clearly life-threatening," given a blast strong enough
to throw Kerry against a bulkhead, "and he was lucky to get out of that
one alive."
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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KBMUDD,
Good find! Makes you wonder about the credibility of Dr. Doyle now even more, after the way he answered the question to the NYT. |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Copying from my post on another thread, http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11554&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
| ord33 wrote: | However, CT scan X-rays taken at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston document that two pieces of metal shrapnel are embedded deep in Mr. Kerry's left thigh, next to the femur, said Dr. Gerald J. Doyle, Mr. Kerry's personal physician in Boston who reviewed the X-rays at the request of this reporter, who is a physician. Doctors treating the wound in 1969 decided to leave the shrapnel in place. "One piece of shrapnel is about the size of a bullet, the other a bit smaller," Dr. Doyle said.
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As a physician, I opin that this report is very suspicious. A piece of shrapnel the "size of a bullet" that had penetrated deep enough to make removal difficult would have caused extensive soft tissue damage on its passage inwards (much as the shock wave of a bullet does). This is especially true if something penetrated all the way to the femur (long leg bone). It would have resulted in an injury that Mr. Kerry would not have walked back to duty with shortly thereafter.
Would you be walking and fit for duty soon after getting shot in the leg with the bullet deeply imbedded in your thigh next to the femur? I doubt it.
In fact, it occurs that shrapnel, being irregular in shape, would have likely caused MORE damage than a bullet in its passage.
The reported findings do not seem consistent with the historical reports.
Also, I agree, we physicians would have said "a 5 mm by 6 mm fragment" or other such indication, not a "bullet sized" fragment. (although this physician couldhave differentiated between a .45, my favorite shooting calibre, from, say, .223 .... ) I made the same point about Kerry's last "medical report" which was in the form of a letter from Dr. Doyle a few months ago.
This current report was somewhat linguistically "doctored" (no pun intended).
-- FDL |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:33 am Post subject: |
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More on the "mystery bullet-sized shapnel" issue...
It's not likely that after a bullet-sized fragment managed to find its way near the femur that a patient would be doing handsprings a week later. Or "jumping off his swift boat and chasing a VC behind a hootch and shooting him" 8 days later. Unless, of course, he's Barnabas Collins of Dark Shadows 1960's soap opera fame...instant healing of bullet wounds - unless they're silver 
I saw numerous patients with gunshot wounds to the limbs in the hospital where I trained, in a poverty-striken neighborhood. Saturday nights were particularly bad. The big concern was that a bullet could have severed an artery in the limb without being obvious. Arteries that have been severed tend to spasm and close off (a protective reaction by the artery's muscular wall). So, initially there's not much bleeding. However, after a day or two the severed ends of the artery relax, and the bleeding that can result can be limb and life-threatening.
On such patients, we performed an ARTERIOGRAM, where x-ray dye is injected into the limb's major arteries and traced through the area of wound to make sure no artery is hangin' in the breeze. This was standard practice in the early 1980's. I'm sure it was likewise a decade prior.
At the very least, someone showing a bullet-sized fragment near the femur on x-ray would be held over for observation for a day or two.
That is, unless it was a bullet from Lilliput... 
-- FDL
Last edited by fortdixlover on Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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srmorton
PO2
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 383
Location: Jacksonville, NC
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
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One again, it comes back to the MSM failing to report anything that
contradicts their image of John Kerry as a war hero. If so much as
a misspelled word were to be found in GWB's medical reports, they
would present it as a deliberate attempt to lie or to cover up his
less than honorable (in their opinion) military record.
The Dems are fond of saying that GWB was "selected not elected".
Of course, we know that is truly a lie. There was one president
that was selected and it happened in 1992. The media so detested
the Regan-Bush administration after 12 years that they were absolutely
determined that Clinton would win. They hid the truth about the
improving economy, the "bimbo erruptions", Clinton's drug use,
and, most of all, his draft-dodging and protesting during Vietnam. If
ever a president was selected by the MSM, it was William Jefferson
Clinton. I thought that after eight years of Clinton, nothing could be
any worse, but I was wrong. John Kerry would be a hundred times
worse - especially at this critical time in our history. America is
depending on the Swiftvets to win this battle for the soul of our
nation! Keep pouring it on because this election is too important
for the media to succeed in selecting another president!
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Susan R. Morton |
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Denis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 48
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Another claim by Dr. Doyle in the Washington Post piece surely brings into question either his honesty or profesional judgment, or perhaps both.
| Quote: | | Doyle said that because he was not the attending physician for any of the injuries, he could not characterize their severity. But he said the third incident was "clearly life-threatening," given a blast strong enough to throw Kerry against a bulkhead, "and he was lucky to get out of that one alive." |
Kerry got a bruised arm, for goshsakes! A contusion. Even a badly bruised arm or contusion is still no indication that his life was in danger. He was on a boat! People on boats lose their balance all the time when things happen to 'rock the boat', like the wake from a mine going off less than seventy five yards away in an explosion powerful enough to lift another 50' long boat right out of the water.
I once tried, when a bit overlong in the tooth for such, to teach my oldest boys somewhat aggressive basketball - like chasing the ball going out of bounds at top speed and slapping it back to one of your team mates. That actually went surprisingly well, considering my advanced decreptitude at the time, but when I continued out of bounds myself and hit the cinderblock wall, it didn't go so well. I didn't bruise my arm. I broke my elbow. But I wouldn't and don't consider that was life threatening, and it is ludicrous of Doyle to say something as stupid as 'he was lucky to get out of that one alive.'!
I'm going to take the Wash Post and Times pieces both, and contact the Times on this nonsense. This is another CBS type hype, pure and simple, and the stories and claims don't match.
Denis |
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3rd gen Navy
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Gainesville, Fl.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:48 am Post subject: |
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uuuummm Admin/Moderator? Can we consolidate the two threads dealing with this? Please check Doc FortDixLover's post in this thread for the other...apologies for not cutting and pasting it.... all the best, your hard work is much appreciated!
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Warm Regards,
Sean G. Smith,
RN, BSN, EMT-B, U.S. Navy, 1994 - 2003.
BS Biology, Business Administration, Nursing
The Deal with Life: Make decisions based on what you might gain, not on what you may lose.
!!!!!! LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN !!!!!! |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| Denis wrote: | Another claim by Dr. Doyle in the Washington Post piece surely brings into question either his honesty or profesional judgment, or perhaps both.
| Quote: | | Doyle said that because he was not the attending physician for any of the injuries, he could not characterize their severity. But he said the third incident was "clearly life-threatening," given a blast strong enough to throw Kerry against a bulkhead, "and he was lucky to get out of that one alive." |
Kerry got a bruised arm, for goshsakes! A contusion. Even a badly bruised arm or contusion is still no indication that his life was in danger. He was on a boat! People on boats lose their balance all the time when things happen to 'rock the boat', like the wake from a mine going off less than seventy five yards away in an explosion powerful enough to lift another 50' long boat right out of the water.
I once tried, when a bit overlong in the tooth for such, to teach my oldest boys somewhat aggressive basketball - like chasing the ball going out of bounds at top speed and slapping it back to one of your team mates. That actually went surprisingly well, considering my advanced decreptitude at the time, but when I continued out of bounds myself and hit the cinderblock wall, it didn't go so well. I didn't bruise my arm. I broke my elbow. But I wouldn't and don't consider that was life threatening, and it is ludicrous of Doyle to say something as stupid as 'he was lucky to get out of that one alive.'!
I'm going to take the Wash Post and Times pieces both, and contact the Times on this nonsense. This is another CBS type hype, pure and simple, and the stories and claims don't match.
Denis |
If a contusion-level fall against a wall is medically "clearly life threatening", then I'm Mata Hari.
It's life threatening if the person is thrust onto a projecting spear or sharp objects of cannibals, like in the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" films. It's life threatening if the person, say, hits their head, gets a subdural hematoma (pool of blood under the skull and brain lining) that expands over the next several weeks, and doesn't have the subdural hematoma attended to as they start to lose various physical and mental capabilities....hmmmm......perhaps JFK2 has the Guiness Book of Records world's longest chronic subdural hematoma since his Valiant Vietnam Service. 
Seriously, though, this Dr. Doyle's clairvoyance is amazing. He's just a regular Dr. Kildare kind of guy! And he has a vivid imagination rivaling that of "seared in my memory" Cambodia John!
Of course, I'd go back in time and personally check on his findings, but by time machine is broken and in the shop ... and the shop is having trouble getting parts, because they haven't been invented yet.
-- FDL |
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