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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone - misuse and other missions |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | To Jones etal
You said:
"...oldkayaker: So now you see the fallacy of your argument: the quote is from John Kerry, and he stated it - and other slander - as factual. Your wobbling about answering my question about what he accused us (including you) of, is very telling! Semper Fi! .."
Oldkayaker says:
Nothing false about the incident of FFZ misuse that I described. Its your apparent failure to see the misuse or denial of facts. Our incident occurred.
And as far as other incidents of non-combantant killings. As a matter of routine, we were never fired at by the alleged enemy in our fire missions. After we fired rockets, we were told how much damage was done and that we killed a number of the enemy. None of those enemy were ever firing at us. Whether or not those enemy were firing at the spotter or at anyone else was never explained to us. These firing missions occurred almost daily. |
Jeez,
Sounds like an Arty mission! Coordinates, Fire For Effect! Talk to Doug Reese, He was a Greenie FO before he was an advisor. I think it may shed some light on your misconceptions of SSZs.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: Please try to answer the question ... |
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oldkayaker:
I asked you if the following was true or false:
"These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of the officers at all levels of command."
..." John Kerry, 1971 Senate testimony
You were unable to answer; my answer is FALSE. So, do you believe the above quote, i.e. that such misuses were " ... committed on a day-to-day basis .... " ? If not, what is so hard about answering what I asked? True or false? It appears that you are the one in denial here. Could it be that, if you answered honestly, you might have to wonder why you support a liar and traitor who did immeasurable damage to his comrades-in-arms, therby bringing into question your own integrity? That's what I mean by denial. At least I know where I stand!
Nobody disagrees, I think, that some misuses occurred. The question is do you, as Kerry testified, believe they were commonplace? At least have the courage to tell me if that was the only incident you know of.
Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone - misuse and other missions |
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| ASPB wrote: | | oldkayaker wrote: | To Jones etal
You said:
"...oldkayaker: So now you see the fallacy of your argument: the quote is from John Kerry, and he stated it - and other slander - as factual. Your wobbling about answering my question about what he accused us (including you) of, is very telling! Semper Fi! .."
Oldkayaker says:
Nothing false about the incident of FFZ misuse that I described. Its your apparent failure to see the misuse or denial of facts. Our incident occurred.
And as far as other incidents of non-combantant killings. As a matter of routine, we were never fired at by the alleged enemy in our fire missions. After we fired rockets, we were told how much damage was done and that we killed a number of the enemy. None of those enemy were ever firing at us. Whether or not those enemy were firing at the spotter or at anyone else was never explained to us. These firing missions occurred almost daily. |
Jeez,
Sounds like an Arty mission! Coordinates, Fire For Effect! Talk to Doug Reese, He was a Greenie FO before he was an advisor. I think it may shed some light on your misconceptions of SSZs. |
I was sitting here watching the funeral, and suddenly my ears were ringing. . . . . .
And just what is a "Greenie FO"? If it is what I think it is, we were ALL Greenie FO's!
Anyway, the enemy doesn't have to fire at you to, well, be the enemy.
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone - misuse and other missions |
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| DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: | | oldkayaker wrote: | To Jones etal
You said:
"...oldkayaker: So now you see the fallacy of your argument: the quote is from John Kerry, and he stated it - and other slander - as factual. Your wobbling about answering my question about what he accused us (including you) of, is very telling! Semper Fi! .."
Oldkayaker says:
Nothing false about the incident of FFZ misuse that I described. Its your apparent failure to see the misuse or denial of facts. Our incident occurred.
And as far as other incidents of non-combantant killings. As a matter of routine, we were never fired at by the alleged enemy in our fire missions. After we fired rockets, we were told how much damage was done and that we killed a number of the enemy. None of those enemy were ever firing at us. Whether or not those enemy were firing at the spotter or at anyone else was never explained to us. These firing missions occurred almost daily. |
Jeez,
Sounds like an Arty mission! Coordinates, Fire For Effect! Talk to Doug Reese, He was a Greenie FO before he was an advisor. I think it may shed some light on your misconceptions of SSZs. |
I was sitting here watching the funeral, and suddenly my ears were ringing. . . . . .
And just what is a "Greenie FO"? If it is what I think it is, we were ALL Greenie FO's!
Anyway, the enemy doesn't have to fire at you to, well, be the enemy.
Doug |
Doug,
It's just a joke! In the Riverine and River Patrol Navy we called everyone of US persuasion in the the USA or USMC "greenies" even though we were wearing green or camo ourselves.. Stupid I know but... So an Arty Forward Observer is a "Greenie FO". Sure as hell not a pejorative. Guys like you took the heat off of us a lot more than once! Don't tell world but we called Swifties "Suntan Squids"! Coastal cruising in Khakis and dungarees; definitely not Brown Water Sailors. Yah! we were wrong but this was before Sealord started.
Tom
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone - misuse and other missions |
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| ASPB wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: | | oldkayaker wrote: | To Jones etal
You said:
"...oldkayaker: So now you see the fallacy of your argument: the quote is from John Kerry, and he stated it - and other slander - as factual. Your wobbling about answering my question about what he accused us (including you) of, is very telling! Semper Fi! .."
Oldkayaker says:
Nothing false about the incident of FFZ misuse that I described. Its your apparent failure to see the misuse or denial of facts. Our incident occurred.
And as far as other incidents of non-combantant killings. As a matter of routine, we were never fired at by the alleged enemy in our fire missions. After we fired rockets, we were told how much damage was done and that we killed a number of the enemy. None of those enemy were ever firing at us. Whether or not those enemy were firing at the spotter or at anyone else was never explained to us. These firing missions occurred almost daily. |
Jeez,
Sounds like an Arty mission! Coordinates, Fire For Effect! Talk to Doug Reese, He was a Greenie FO before he was an advisor. I think it may shed some light on your misconceptions of SSZs. |
I was sitting here watching the funeral, and suddenly my ears were ringing. . . . . .
And just what is a "Greenie FO"? If it is what I think it is, we were ALL Greenie FO's!
Anyway, the enemy doesn't have to fire at you to, well, be the enemy.
Doug |
Doug,
It's just a joke! In the Riverine and River Patrol Navy we called everyone of US persuasion in the the USA or USMC "greenies" even though we were wearing green or camo ourselves.. Stupid I know but... So an Arty Forward Observer is a "Greenie FO". Sure as hell not a pejorative. Guys like you took the heat off of us a lot more than once! Don't tell world but we called Swifties "Suntan Squids"! Coastal cruising in Khakis and dungarees; definitely not Brown Water Sailors. Yah! we were wrong but this was before Sealord started.
Tom |
Oh, a joke. Didn't know you guys did that over here 
I thought it meant new/inexperienced, as in "green". In which case I couldn't imagine how an FO could go over there with any experience.
But don't worry about me mentioning your "nickname" for Swifties to any of them. And you posting it here shouldn't be a problem, as none of them seem to post on this site
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone - misuse and other missions |
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| DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: | | DougReese wrote: | | ASPB wrote: | | oldkayaker wrote: | To Jones etal
You said:
"...oldkayaker: So now you see the fallacy of your argument: the quote is from John Kerry, and he stated it - and other slander - as factual. Your wobbling about answering my question about what he accused us (including you) of, is very telling! Semper Fi! .."
Oldkayaker says:
Nothing false about the incident of FFZ misuse that I described. Its your apparent failure to see the misuse or denial of facts. Our incident occurred.
And as far as other incidents of non-combantant killings. As a matter of routine, we were never fired at by the alleged enemy in our fire missions. After we fired rockets, we were told how much damage was done and that we killed a number of the enemy. None of those enemy were ever firing at us. Whether or not those enemy were firing at the spotter or at anyone else was never explained to us. These firing missions occurred almost daily. |
Jeez,
Sounds like an Arty mission! Coordinates, Fire For Effect! Talk to Doug Reese, He was a Greenie FO before he was an advisor. I think it may shed some light on your misconceptions of SSZs. |
I was sitting here watching the funeral, and suddenly my ears were ringing. . . . . .
And just what is a "Greenie FO"? If it is what I think it is, we were ALL Greenie FO's!
Anyway, the enemy doesn't have to fire at you to, well, be the enemy.
Doug |
Doug,
It's just a joke! In the Riverine and River Patrol Navy we called everyone of US persuasion in the the USA or USMC "greenies" even though we were wearing green or camo ourselves.. Stupid I know but... So an Arty Forward Observer is a "Greenie FO". Sure as hell not a pejorative. Guys like you took the heat off of us a lot more than once! Don't tell world but we called Swifties "Suntan Squids"! Coastal cruising in Khakis and dungarees; definitely not Brown Water Sailors. Yah! we were wrong but this was before Sealord started.
Tom |
Oh, a joke. Didn't know you guys did that over here
I thought it meant new/inexperienced, as in "green". In which case I couldn't imagine how an FO could go over there with any experience.
But don't worry about me mentioning your "nickname" for Swifties to any of them. And you posting it here shouldn't be a problem, as none of them seem to post on this site
Doug |
Nah! The new/inexperienced were "newbies" or "new guys" in Riverine, but I've heard a lot of other definitional terms applied to them... some not publishable here!  Ever heard of a "Cherry? 
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | | I do believe that the domino theory as far as Southeast Asia was bunk. I do not believe that the North Vietnamese Communists planned to take over Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma and the other nations that were predicted if we didn't go to war in Vietnam. The North Vietnamese did take over South Vietnam, and did go to war with Pol Pot in Cambodia, but did not try and take over any other nations, did they? |
The Vietnamese still control Laos to this day, and they did move right to the Thai border where the Royal Thai Army was mobilized (the Malaysia Army also mobilized). You can believe what you want, but the last Vietnamese sponsored Communist base camp in Thailand was destroyed in 1982. The Thais firmly believe that the domino theory was correct and that without the aid of the Americans and the delay caused by the conflict in South Vietnam, Thailand would have been overrun.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject: Free Fire Zone ... misuse |
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To Walt Jones
Yes, true as Kerry defined crimes.
To Hoffman and O'Neill
Where are you guys? This message was sent to you and all I have heard from are a lot of guys who weren't there when or where I was or weren't even sailors, except Bob Shirley. Don't be shy. Come out, come out wherever you are?  |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone ... misuse |
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| oldkayaker wrote: | To Walt Jones
Yes, true as Kerry defined crimes.
To Hoffman and O'Neill
Where are you guys? This message was sent to you and all I have heard from are a lot of guys who weren't there when or where I was or weren't even sailors, except Bob Shirley. Don't be shy. Come out, come out wherever you are? |
O'Neill didn't serve with Kerry! Hibbard and Elliott are the guys to talk to and they're not BB Junkies. Email to the website or call the contact number if you want to talk to them. I have O'Neill's number but I can't make it public. You can find his office number in the telephone book. Quit whining and do a little research.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:48 pm Post subject: Free Fire Zone ... misuse |
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ASPB
"...Quit whining and do a little research..."
Moi ? Whine?...
Research...what? I provided the eyewitness information. No research necessary. 
And send in the big boys. This is presumably their forum; but, I guess they don't want to deal with facts that poke holes in their house of cards. They just want to put on their C-SPAN dog and pony show without facing the Q & A. |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:55 am Post subject: Re: Free Fire Zone ... misuse |
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| oldkayaker wrote: |
Moi ? Whine?...
Research...what? I provided the eyewitness information. No research necessary.
{snip}
I guess they don't want to deal with facts that poke holes in their house of cards.
{snip]
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YOUR "eyewitness information" of "authorization" from your original post:
| Quote: | | ..... we checked with our land based operational command and verified that these people and boats were in a designated "free fire zone" and consequently, anyone in that area was considered to be "unfriendly." |
My current neighbor is "unfriendly"
The President of France is "unfriendly"
Some people on this forum are "unfriendly"
The Vietnamese fishermen may or may not have been "unfriendly"
That does NOT "authorize" anyone to do them harm just because they are
in a place where they should not be. Someone else's property, for example,
or in a location designated by people in a far away place and at another
time as a "free fire zone." In "fact" the ROE's in effect at the time forbid it.
Your CO was obligated to follow the Rules of Engagment and NOT use force
unless his command was threathened with "immediate danger."
However, instead, he disregarded this obligation and common sense, and
took independent action against innocent fishermen that were of absolutely
no threat to your vessel, that were not designated targets of your assigned
mission, in an action that was NOT authorized by ANYONE .... according to
your own description.
| Quote: |
We took a position about 2000 yards from the mass of people and sampans and followed our usual procedure of "bracketing" the target.
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Just be thankful that the Swift Boat was there to provide a more sane and
reasoned judgement or else you and your shipmates might very well have
been subject to disiplinary action by the II Corps Command under which you
operated. And for something which you would have been rightfully ashamed
of for the rest of your lives. Since no one was harmed, it was easy for the
powers that be to "just let it pass" as a case of severe misjudgement.
Rather than providing "proof" of the outrageous allegations in the 1971
congressional testimony, your vignette just emphasizes the point that violent
actions against the non-combatant Vietnamese population were very much
in CONTRIDICTION to the policy and rules of the US Government and the US
Command in Vietnam. And the very few that took it upon themselves to
break these rules and policies could expect appropriate consequences.
The Rules of Engagement in this regard were crystal clear. And the White
River simply did not comply, but disregarded them in this isolated incident.
.
Last edited by rbshirley on Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:40 am; edited 3 times in total |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:15 am Post subject: |
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Liberals and Democrats are 'unfriendly'! 
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | Liberals and Democrats are 'unfriendly'!
Woof! |
I resemble that remark 
Doug |
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oldkayaker
Ensign
Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:46 pm Post subject: Free Fire Zones.... misuse |
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Bob
You have just confirmed the point of my message. FFZs were a policy fraught with real and potential misuse. No one knows any better than I that it is hard to face the reality that carrying out legitimate policy authorizations could result in the death of apparent innocent bystanders; but, that is the reality of the FFZ policy in Vietnam. You and I would be deluding ourselves to believe it didn't often happen.
And to War Dog
If you were there in a fire support or swift boat capacity, fine. If not your comments to date have been irrelevent.
To Hoffman and O'Neill
And since the apparent purpose of this community seems to be to tear down Kerry for the benefit of some other Pres candidate, then be advised that you are losing the independent veteran voter by trying to discolor a real vet. Real vets served their country, put their life on the line, did their duty and earned the right to exercise free speech. This board is evidence of those rights being exercised albeit without some of the key players participating.
John / Oldkayaker |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And to War Dog
If you were there in a fire support or swift boat capacity, fine. If not your comments to date have been irrelevent. |
I was over in Southeast Asia in 72, standing guard on an Air Force Base with my dog. If you notice, I posted one comment about the rules for a "free fire zone", based on that, and not with anything specific towards swift boats, or any other naval component in Vietnam, or the coastal waters thereof. You know of your own little area in which you served, and only with the things you saw, participated in, or had knowledge of.
That is the good thing about this board, in that all of us who were over there can offer our own perspectives on this issue, and by doing so, we all might learn something we did not know beforehand.
My other comment was meant for humor to lighten the place up.
And I have just as much right to post on this thread as does any other member of this board. Re: "If not your comments to date have been irrelevent." is just your opinion. What you find as irrelevent, others may find relevent!
| Quote: | | And since the apparent purpose of this community seems to be to tear down Kerry for the benefit of some other Pres candidate, then be advised that you are losing the independent veteran voter by trying to discolor a real vet. Real vets served their country, put their life on the line, did their duty and earned the right to exercise free speech. This board is evidence of those rights being exercised albeit without some of the key players participating. |
And this board is made up of 'real veterans'! All veterans, including the ones in Vietnam have the right to have their own opinions on weither John F. Kerry is or isn't qualified to be the next President and CIC of the United States. All Veterans are welcome here to voice their opinions no matter if anti or pro John F. Kerry! And every veteran here, irregardless if either pro or anti John F. Kerry "served their country, put their life on the line, did their duty and earned the right to exercise free speech!"
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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