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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote:
> No, it doesn't count, cause they weren't on the same canal. As I said,
> before 28 Feb they were never up that canal. Specifically, the Dong Cung
> Canal. That canal runs off, to the north, of the Bay Hap River.
>
> More from those great after-action reports, or whatever they're called.
> Keep reading them and you'll be totally confused as to what happened,
> where, how, etc.
Actually this isn't from any after-action report (Kerry never released the offical one), it is from Kerry's campaign, which Kerry must approve of since it is on his official site.
> The 27 Feb incident happened on their way back (on the Bay Hap) from our
> village, as they came in to discuss what we were going to do the next day
> -- 28 Feb. On 27 Feb they were only on the Bay Hap River, not the Dong
> Cung Canal.
>
> And on that next day (28 Feb), the incident that occured, occured on the
> Dong Cung Canal. . . . . NOT the Bay Hap River.
Kerry's web site doesn't directly claim where exactly the action took place for either the 27th or 28th, but is clear enough that it was in the general Bai Hap river area without getting into which specific canal off the river.
If what you say is true, that Feb. 27th action was on Bai Hap and not Dung Cung, then why does Kerry place them on the 28th "investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night?"
But then you have claimed the 28th was merely some kind of training mission for everyone to get acquainted. Spin Reese, spin. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | DougReese wrote:
> No, it doesn't count, cause they weren't on the same canal. As I said,
> before 28 Feb they were never up that canal. Specifically, the Dong Cung
> Canal. That canal runs off, to the north, of the Bay Hap River.
>
> More from those great after-action reports, or whatever they're called.
> Keep reading them and you'll be totally confused as to what happened,
> where, how, etc.
Actually this isn't from any after-action report (Kerry never released the offical one), it is from Kerry's campaign, which Kerry must approve of since it is on his official site.
> The 27 Feb incident happened on their way back (on the Bay Hap) from our
> village, as they came in to discuss what we were going to do the next day
> -- 28 Feb. On 27 Feb they were only on the Bay Hap River, not the Dong
> Cung Canal.
>
> And on that next day (28 Feb), the incident that occured, occured on the
> Dong Cung Canal. . . . . NOT the Bay Hap River.
Kerry's web site doesn't directly claim where exactly the action took place for either the 27th or 28th, but is clear enough that it was in the general Bai Hap river area without getting into which specific canal off the river.
If what you say is true, that Feb. 27th action was on Bai Hap and not Dung Cung, then why does Kerry place them on the 28th "investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night?"
But then you have claimed the 28th was merely some kind of training mission for everyone to get acquainted. Spin Reese, spin. |
Boy, you are some piece of work.
On the way TO the village 28 Feb, they passed the spot where they were shot at on the way FROM the village 27 Feb. They checked it out at that time. They had some UDT guys with them to assist.
I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with an adult.
Doug |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with an adult. |
Wow, that was a real intelligent response! I'm impressed with your level of comprehension! 
Woof!
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When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
Boy, you are some piece of work.
On the way TO the village 28 Feb, they passed the spot where they were shot at on the way FROM the village 27 Feb. They checked it out at that time. They had some UDT guys with them to assist.
I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with an adult.
Doug |
Translated: Reese would rather discuss this with any adult who doesn't know how to properly prepare FOIA requests to obtain the facts. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
Boy, you are some piece of work.
On the way TO the village 28 Feb, they passed the spot where they were shot at on the way FROM the village 27 Feb. They checked it out at that time. They had some UDT guys with them to assist.
I would be more than happy to discuss any of this with an adult.
Doug |
Translated: Reese would rather discuss this with any adult who doesn't know how to properly prepare FOIA requests to obtain the facts. |
No, that's your spin.
Translated -- I would be more than happy (and have, if anyone has been reading) to discuss this with anyone who isn't going to try to tell me that after action reports are the gospel truth. After action reports, or whatever you want to call them, are notorious for being inaccurate.
Fact -- the 28 Feb incident from which John Kerry was awarded the SS, took place on the Dong Cung Canal.
Fact -- There were three (yes, three) incidents that took place on the Bay Hap River that John Kerry was involved in. One was on 27 Feb. Another, on 28 Feb, was when they investigated the site of the 28 Feb incident. The third, which was the incident from which John Kerry was awarded the Bronze Star, occured on 13 March. The location(s) on the Bay Hap were somewhere between the village of Dong Cung and where the Bay Hap empties out into the Gulf of Thailand.
Fact -- The Bay Hap River and the Dong Cung Canal are not one and the same. The Dong Cung Canal flows north out of the Bay Hap River, and does so immediately to the west of the village of Dong Cung. The official name of that village, as of a couple of years ago, is Dam Cung.
Fact -- All the FOIA in the world is not going to change the above.
Doug |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:37 am Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote:
> Translated -- I would be more than happy (and have, if anyone has been
> reading) to discuss this with anyone who isn't going to try to tell me
> that after action reports are the gospel truth. After action reports, or
> whatever you want to call them, are notorious for being inaccurate.
You haven't even read the damn thing and it is already "notorious for being inaccurate." You are certaintly setting the stage to discredit anything the Navy provides on the incident as "inaccurate" aren't you? You know what happens when someone doesn't tell the truth about the events they are reporting? They get investigated and their medal rescinded if found that the truth was concealed or outright lying to the Navy is involved.
Now, for someone like yourself, who has claimed to only in recent years to have remembered the details of Feb. 28 1969 to say "Trust only my account," but not what Kerry or his crew says or what Kerry may recorded hours after incident in his after-action report because these reports are "notorious for being inaccurate."
> Fact -- The Bay Hap River and the Dong Cung Canal are not one and the
> same. The Dong Cung Canal flows north out of the Bay Hap River, and does
> so immediately to the west of the village of Dong Cung. The official name
> of that village, as of a couple of years ago, is Dam Cung.
I don't believe anyone has tried to say they were one and the same. I think Bai Hap River is being used in general AO terms. Kerry's after-action report should have reference to Dong Cung Canal or just a canal off the Bai Hap. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Since I'm no wiz with how this works, look for my comments in between yours . . . . . .
| The bandit wrote: | DougReese wrote:
> Translated -- I would be more than happy (and have, if anyone has been
> reading) to discuss this with anyone who isn't going to try to tell me
> that after action reports are the gospel truth. After action reports, or
> whatever you want to call them, are notorious for being inaccurate.
You haven't even read the damn thing and it is already "notorious for being inaccurate." You are certaintly setting the stage to discredit anything the Navy provides on the incident as "inaccurate" aren't you?
Doug: I have read all those reports. I am not saying that they are all inaccurate, but some are . . . . . some are very inaccurate.
You know what happens when someone doesn't tell the truth about the events they are reporting? They get investigated and their medal rescinded if found that the truth was concealed or outright lying to the Navy is involved.
Doug: So why don't you just go ahead and and do that?
Now, for someone like yourself, who has claimed to only in recent years to have remembered the details of Feb. 28 1969
Doug: What in the world are you talking about? Go ahead and pull up some obscure post from 3-4-5 years ago on alt.war.vietnam, but you will NEVER see me saying I "just remembered" the details of 28 Feb or "just remembered" Kerry. One doesn't forget that kind of thing. My family and a few close friends have been aware of most of that event since soon after I returned from Vietnam. And remembering Kerry? I always remembered him (the event & what happened), but in fact didn't recognize him at first when I saw him in 1971 testifying before the Senate.
to say "Trust only my account," but not what Kerry or his crew says or what Kerry may recorded hours after incident in his after-action report because these reports are "notorious for being inaccurate."
Doug: Believe what Kerry's crew says, but don't try to hand pick their comments to fit your agenda and/or questions that were never asked. And don't try to make what everyone says about an incident that happened 35 years ago mesh in every minute detail, because they won't.
> Fact -- The Bay Hap River and the Dong Cung Canal are not one and the
> same. The Dong Cung Canal flows north out of the Bay Hap River, and does
> so immediately to the west of the village of Dong Cung. The official name
> of that village, as of a couple of years ago, is Dam Cung.
I don't believe anyone has tried to say they were one and the same. I think Bai Hap River is being used in general AO terms. Kerry's after-action report should have reference to Dong Cung Canal or just a canal off the Bai Hap.
Doug: His citation mentions the canal. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not now looking at what you said in your previous post), but didn't you make an issue of it? Didn't you say something about my saying the Swifts had never been up that canal before 28 Feb, and then you said what about 27 Feb?
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:43 am Post subject: |
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DougReese wrote:
> Doug: What in the world are you talking about? Go ahead and pull up some
> obscure post from 3-4-5 years ago on alt.war.vietnam, but you will NEVER
> see me saying I "just remembered" the details of 28 Feb or "just
> remembered" Kerry. One doesn't forget that kind of thing. My family and a
Didn't you recently say:
"Doug: Boy, you are some detective, aren't you? There's a reason why I didn't mention Bill Rood. It's because I didn't know which boat I was on. I only remembered that Kerry's boat was ahead of the boat I was on. I didn't know who the skipper of my boat was."
Should had been easy to remember which boat you were on because you weren't on Kerry's PCF-94, PCF-43 remained behind and that left only PCF-23 that you could have been on since it was the only one trailing Kerry's 94 and the only one that had departed with Kerry's 94.
A yoo-yoo could have figured which boat he was on in minutes.
> Doug: Believe what Kerry's crew says, but don't try to hand pick their
> comments to fit your agenda and/or questions that were never asked. And
> don't try to make what everyone says about an incident that happened 35
> years ago mesh in every minute detail, because they won't.
You know what Reese, this isn't about what everyone says what happened 35 years ago: it is what they keep saying now and keep changing now. Why dosent anyone ever say, "well it was a long time ago and I don't really recall what exactly happened." But no one does that, instead they just keep spewing out new details on demand, which shows truth and accuracy is not a concern for these witnesses.
Gosh, if a detective encounters witnesses who statememnts changes with the seasons might suspect that they are blowing smoke out of their ass and really did not witness what they claim to have witnessed. This is why any after-action reports that were taken within hours of the incident are so important. Are the witnesses back scratching Kerry?
> Doug: His citation mentions the canal. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not
> now looking at what you said in your previous post), but didn't you make
> an issue of it? Didn't you say something about my saying the Swifts had
> never been up that canal before 28 Feb, and then you said what about 27
> Feb?
His original citation does not mention the canal, the most recent one does. Interesting enough, the latest citation removes and add's new details, which makes the whole damn award very VERY suspect. I'll have more on this when the Navy awards dept. gets back with me on the paper trail of Kerry's multi citiations. |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | DougReese wrote:
> Doug: What in the world are you talking about? Go ahead and pull up some
> obscure post from 3-4-5 years ago on alt.war.vietnam, but you will NEVER
> see me saying I "just remembered" the details of 28 Feb or "just
> remembered" Kerry. One doesn't forget that kind of thing. My family and a
Didn't you recently say:
"Doug: Boy, you are some detective, aren't you? There's a reason why I didn't mention Bill Rood. It's because I didn't know which boat I was on. I only remembered that Kerry's boat was ahead of the boat I was on. I didn't know who the skipper of my boat was."
Should had been easy to remember which boat you were on because you weren't on Kerry's PCF-94, PCF-43 remained behind and that left only PCF-23 that you could have been on since it was the only one trailing Kerry's 94 and the only one that had departed with Kerry's 94.
A yoo-yoo could have figured which boat he was on in minutes.
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I knew Kerry's boat was ahead of the one I was on. I did not know his was immediately ahead of mine. Our boat could have been the 3rd boat.
As we went up that canal, the boat I was on suddenly beached when we were fired upon. I knew what Kerry's boat did (the B-40, etc) as Kerry told me.
As for the other (Dan Droz's) boat, I didn't have a clue as to what it was doing during all of this, as I was a little busy and wasn't paying attention. I had to ask Michael Kranish (Boston Globe) a few months ago, as he had accounts from a number of the crew. He also told me the order of the boats, and Bill Rood's name.
I remember only a few of the names of guys I served with. Hell, I couldn't tell you the names of the other advisors until a few weeks ago, and I lived in the same village with them for months! I sure couldn't tell you Bill Rood's name after being with him for a few hours. I used to think this was odd until I talked to other vets and discovered it was fairly common.
I don't believe I ever said I knew ALL the details of that incident. I have recounted what I saw and/or was involved with (and much of that hasn't been mentioned on this board because it isn't directly connected to Kerry and because I don't feel like sharing it with a bunch of strangers), and recounted what was told to me.
If you have any other obscure, unimportant questions, please feel to ask.
Oh, and what about that Form 80? I'm still waiting to sign it with you. Just let me know where. I'm looking forward to seeing what it reveals.
Doug
PS. It's "yo-yo". |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
As we went up that canal, the boat I was on suddenly beached when we were fired upon. I knew what Kerry's boat did (the B-40, etc) as Kerry told me. |
Doug,
The point is to get other sources than John F. Kerry about his actions.
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
As we went up that canal, the boat I was on suddenly beached when we were fired upon. I knew what Kerry's boat did (the B-40, etc) as Kerry told me. |
Doug,
The point is to get other sources than John F. Kerry about his actions. |
Let me elaborate a bit further, although I believe I've touched on this before.
Kerry spoke to me on the scene and told me what happened. Some of his crew were there and/or nearby. Some of them commented about what happened. I can't say who said what (I would have taken notes if I knew I would be interrogated about it 35 years later), but what was said fit what I could see before my eyes. There was nothing strange about any of what was said to me.
The only people who could add to what I have said would be his crew, who had different perspectives depending on where they were, physically speaking. I believe they have all made statements as to what they saw.
The South Vietnamese soldiers probably couldn't add much as they would have been on the back of the boat. I would think that a few of them might have been aware that the VC ran around the corner, but I doubt if they could have seen much more than that. And, as I said before, contacting/finding any of them is difficult.
The VC don't know much. Those that survived weren't exactly standing around watching what was happening. After a moment or two, when they realized what they had gotten themselves into, those that could got the hell out of there.
Are there any other sources?
Doug |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are there any other sources |
A good place to start would be for him to post the actual citations for his medals, not just the orders awarding them. In the citation, a superior would be stating what meritorious action resulted in the award. Last I looked, he claimed to be posting citations, but they were only the orders.
A copy of the citation should be in the folder he was given when the medals were awarded, unless he threw that over the fence too. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
As we went up that canal, the boat I was on suddenly beached when we were fired upon. I knew what Kerry's boat did (the B-40, etc) as Kerry told me. |
Doug,
The point is to get other sources than John F. Kerry about his actions. |
Let me elaborate a bit further, although I believe I've touched on this before.
Kerry spoke to me on the scene and told me what happened. Some of his crew were there and/or nearby. Some of them commented about what happened. I can't say who said what (I would have taken notes if I knew I would be interrogated about it 35 years later), but what was said fit what I could see before my eyes. There was nothing strange about any of what was said to me.
The only people who could add to what I have said would be his crew, who had different perspectives depending on where they were, physically speaking. I believe they have all made statements as to what they saw.
The South Vietnamese soldiers probably couldn't add much as they would have been on the back of the boat. I would think that a few of them might have been aware that the VC ran around the corner, but I doubt if they could have seen much more than that. And, as I said before, contacting/finding any of them is difficult.
The VC don't know much. Those that survived weren't exactly standing around watching what was happening. After a moment or two, when they realized what they had gotten themselves into, those that could got the hell out of there.
Are there any other sources?
Doug |
I have little doubt about what actually happened but would like to learn more about it. The questions I do have are (1) why he wasn't reprimanded for beaching the boat in the middle of a firefight; definitely not SOP or smart, and (2) who wrote and countersigned the after-action report and the recommendation for the Silver Star. Questions that may be impossible to get answers to.
The reason I ask the latter question is that I know from personal experience that OINCs often drafted their own award recommendations. If that could be proved in Kerry's case I think the public would find it interesting to say the least.
Later by phone Doug,
ASPB
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:52 am Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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| DougReese wrote: |
And for what it's worth, there were no mines on the beach. The Swifts had never been up this particular canal, so there'd be no reason for the VC to mine anything.
Doug |
If there was no reason for the VC to mine anything why would they have multiple VC with rocket launchers in position to fire at boats passing by? You are claiming that there were 2 VC at that location, aren't you? If they had reason to have troops, they had reason to mine. Putting mines and boobing traps around the site provided protection 24/7. A nighttime sentry might fall asleep in his hole.
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"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: KERRY BREAKING THE RULES |
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| DougReese wrote: |
The bandit wrote:
Kerry had a real bright idea: because the troops were in the stern they would be out of harms way from fire coming from the front. Seem's old Kerry forgot about the potential of the VC firing from the other side of the
canal right into the stern of his Swift, where firing at the troops onboard would be like "shooting fish in a barrel." Kerry's bright mind doesn't seem to differentiate between small 40-100 foot wide canals with major wide rivers.
So you know the type of weapons the VC had, as opposed to what the South Vietnmese soldiers had? And add to that the weapons Kerry's Swift had on the back.
And then there was the other two Swifts that were a short distance from Kerry's boat, with all their firepower.
"Fish in a barrel"? Hardly.
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According to Kerry and other's PCF-43 didn't arrive till after the VC with the B-40 was dealt with and according to YOU PCF-23 was already beached a distance away and unable to provide firepower. There was no swift firepower available to protect troops in the stern. Short has said they were taking fire from the other shore before the 43 arrived to surpress it and that there was nothing he could do about it AND was taking cover during the whole time to keep from getting hit. Kerry and company didn't seem to be concerned with the incoming coming from a short distance hmmmmmmm
Again, I wouldn't wanted to be in the stern of Kerry's beached swift taking fire only 100 feet or so away (YOU have said the canal was only the width of a 4-6 lane highway.) |
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