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sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

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Marine4life · Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:03 pm Post subject:

Here we go again, yes the Arabs want to see us on our knee's. Yes they have their money in the US treasury, but they want to control the US and us. Get it!! They want to control the world, through fear mostly that is the goal of terrorist's. Look at the UN voting record, most countries vote against us on a regular basis then say we are their friend's. But the only one's who count are the one's with veto power, Germany and France are freedom enemy #1 right now. Semper Fi.
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sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

Okay, third time's a charm.

I imagine I'll be getting some 'leftist' comments as I usually do in this kind of conversation.

I'm a supporter of democracy, free-market capitalism, and until President Bush got into the White House I thought I agreed with Republicans on foreign policy issues.

Clean up your language and name calling on this board. Continue to use slanderous names here, and you will have your posts edited or deleted. Edited by Moderator

sdpatriot · Ensign Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 50 Location: SD

i'm curious.. who are all these "other nations" who dissagree with
American policy? ABC, NBC, and CBS?

or the Window Dressing Nations?

or the Oil for Food Funnel-it-into-my-account Nations?

just who are these mysterious nations?

oh, oh .... i know.... Mexico! right?

sdpatriot
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sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

Back up your claims with logic, please. How exactly are France and Germany 'Freedom's Number One Enemy' when they are democracies, exactly like the one we're trying to create in Iraq? Doesn't bode well for the future of Iraq, does it? Unless 'Freedom' is whatever the U.S. wants to decide it is.

And actually, the only reason why most of the Arab world's governments have the strained grip on power that they do right now is because U.S. money and defense assistance affords them that ability. Why would Saudi Arabia want 'America on its knees' when our attack helicopters are the only think keeping a Taliban-style government from taking Riyadh?

Why is it that if someone votes against you they aren't your 'friend'? Doesn't that run in the face of the VERY logic that underpins a democracy? The same logic that you would in the same breath claim Iraq should absorb at gunpoint?

There is ZERO internal consistency to neoconservative foreign policy right now. Al-Jazeera is the perfect example. The SAME people who cry endlessly about 'reform' in the Arab world decry the percieved anti-American slant on the network, when it is the ONLY free press in the ENTIRE region? I'm confused, why would you want to attack the only free institution in the middle east? Aren't we trying to promote democracy? Or is it only regional autonomy for nations that support U.S. policies?

Mod - Not trying to be confrontational, maybe I was just a little unsure about board rules, I'll be more on my toes in the future.

sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

The Oil-For-Food scandal is another one.

You mean 'gasp' people cooperated with Saddam Hussein to further their own goals? Kind of like the Reagan-era policy of tacit approval for genocide in order to safeguard U.S. wheat exports? That's not a moveon.org allegation, it's historical fact. If you do some research, you will see that this was official U.S. policy.

Obviously the Oil for Food scandal is a big deal, but it doesn't undermine the need for the institution any more than Watergate undermined the need for democratic governance or Enron undermined free-market capitalism.

Those 'other' nations are most of the nations in Western Europe from whom we've been allied with for fifty years, the nations in the Arab world that we claim to want to promote moderaton for on one hand and then on deride as unimportant and inconsequential on the other hand, and religious leaders like the Pope and the Dalai Lama who view American unilateralism as dangerous and immoral. Basically, it includes everyone except for Britan, El Salvador, Poland, and Vanuatu (which you couldn't even find on a map).

oldkayaker · Ensign Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 52

This discussion has lost its way. The basic question was what is a liberal and what is a conservative.

I tried to focus on one area of comparison, a fiscal comparison. Fiscally speaking which of these groups today, is liberal in spending and which one is conservative in spending?

Responses above are wandering around.

sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

Sorry, I just read the 'conservative's support laws and liberals support rights' part and got sidetracked to international law and foreign policy. I know I'm just a guest on this board, and I don't mean to mess up your thread.

Jeremy Eaton · Seaman Apprentice Joined: 08 May 2004 Posts: 90

War Dog · Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:11 pm Post subject:

Let's get this thread back on track and deal with the differences between Liberals and Conservatives. Further slams against the current administration will be deleted, and this thread will be locked. Fair warning has been given!
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oldkayaker · Ensign Joined: 25 May 2004 Posts: 52

Good summary Rowelg. Especially interested in this part:

ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

SILLYRABBIT, I write one paragraph simple to ask "Please sight me some specific international law, or even a law of another naton, that should trump one specific American law? Be concrete, not abstract. Generalizations teach nothing. You must have one law in mind to back this statement."

You respond with 4 generalized paragaphs of words and accusations. I respond, in turn, with facts and explanation of my views and values. Know that I do not value French or German opinions. We owe them nothing. More Americans have died because of them, many many more than theirs who died for us.

Further, the only real foreign adversary in this Anti America attitude is France. They have been an adversary for centuries. France is one of the most liberal Nations in the world, next to Sweden.

Name me one thing France has done for our country, ever. Vietnam was French, part of French IndoChina. France allowed Japan to all the rubber and rice resources of Vietnam completely during WWII. Nobody tells you that. Many American's died in the Pacific because of that. Not to speak of Normandy.

France values said, "give up the rubber and rice, surrender vital resources, keep the power". Before wars end, Japan locked up the French in prisons and took control. Vietnamese hated the French because millions starved for lack of this rice during WWII. After the war, the western allies put France back in power (in the name of international law). Vietnamese revolted against the French since 1946, decades before the USA stepped in to help them. That was our biggest mistake. Kennedy sent in advisors to help the French in the late 1950's. LBJ expanded it because the French bailed out leaving us hold the bag. Teddy Kennedy calls this the Nixon war. It was more the JFK war, but really the FRENCH WAR. We backed the wrong side. We made the mistake of honoring a treaty (international law).

As to international law, at the end of Korean Police Action, in 1954, came the SEATO alliance organized under the Southeast Asia Collective Defense Treaty by representatives of Australia, France, Great Britain, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Thailand, and the United States. SEATO relied on the military forces of member nations. SEATO’s principal role was to sanction the U.S. presence in Vietnam, and France withheld support. In 1964, Congress created the Tomkin Gulf Resolution because France bailed out leaving us holding the bag. France gave up to Hitler in WWII without firing a shot.

No Vietnam Veteran or Foreign War Veteran should respect France. For those who are open to understanding the 1858-1965 French Colonial history after Napoleon sent his military into Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos, read: From the RIvers to the Sea, The U.S. Navy in Vietnam by CDR R. L. Scheadley, USN.

So, to those of you veterans who advocate the French attitude toward America, and accept France as WORLD OPINION, wise up! I expect it from the college crowd. Australia, Great Britain, New Zealand, Pakistan, the Philippines, Thailand, and the United States stood together 50 years ago, and still do in Iraq. France was never there, never will be! Know who the friends are and who will be there when the going gets tough. We now have the old soviet bloc countries on our side. Screw Old Europe!

sillyrabbit · Seaman Recruit Joined: 13 Jun 2004 Posts: 36

I'm not going to advocate for France, but if you want to throw allegations of historical wrongdoing at them to support your position we can talk about some of the darker chapters of American history too. Like, in that same period of time the U.S. didn't want to 'waste bombs' on the train tracks that led to Auschwitz.

The 'America can do nothing but wrong' and 'America can do no wrong' crowds are both equally psychotic, from my point of view.

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ROWELG · Ensign Joined: 12 Jun 2004 Posts: 64 Location: Minnesota

Sillyrabbit continues with generalizations, absent facts, absent references, "Like, in that same period of time the U.S. didn't want to 'waste bombs' on the train tracks that led to Auschwitz."

Helter Skelter, you shift the subject from international laws, and my historical entries on what they have gotten us into. Blame America. You are an advocate for France when you say we should submit to world law, the UN, when our only real adversary in the UN is France.

Please provide your reverence where you learned we didn't want to waste bombs on behalf of the Jews in Auschwitz. Can you put forth any historical or reference specifics to your accusations of American wrongdoing?