SwiftVets.com

BrianC · PO2 Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 364

Kerry won't abandon Afghanistan like Bush has done.

............

A falsehood. Afghanistan hasn't been abandoned. They have their own government in place, and while things are exactly like living in the USA, they have come a long, long way since the Taliban was removed.

As for being "20" when Kerry served, that too is a tad misleading. He'd already finished college (let's assume he's 22, maybe 23), and then he spent nearly a year more travelling (France was one of the places he went to during those days).

You seem to imply that any 20 year old would gladly take up a chance to fly jets - regardless of the danger involved. That's about as oversimplified as it can get.... first, a young man has to QUALIFY to fly jets -- I know -- I tried twice, and was refused entry to AOCS. Further, I know plenty of surface sailors - guys that said I was crazy for going into submarine duty "because of the danger". Well, those guys are living proof that not every 20-something man in the military wants to risk their life for a particular kind of duty.

Now, that said - the original question, as I read it, was more related to why Veterans are angry with Kerry. I think that it's been answered numerous times already. Kerry likes to constantly and consistently remind us that he's a "war hero" from Viet Nam... he constantly has reminded us that he CHOSE to serve there. Now, it's been 34 years since then, and so naturally, anyone that wants to be inclusive about the man's life back then (since he's constantly harking back to those days) will also want to examine what he's done SINCE then. And when his Congressional testimony and his damning comments about his fellow Veterans gets brought up, suddenly Kerry starts whining about how we're "questioning his patriotism", and claiming it isn't fair, and here YOU are, saying, "it was a long time ago". Well, 1969 was a long time ago, too, but 1971 was even more recent, if only by a couple of years.

You can't have your cake & eat it, too - no matter how much you'd like to. If you want to go back 34 years and proclaim "Gee, what a great guy he was", then you have to also take into consideration that he did some things and said some things that were very damaging to our war effort then.

Ever heard what General Giap said about Kerry's protesting of the war? He credits Kerry with giving them the motivation to continue the war. Giap has said that the NVA were all but ready to give it up - until folks like Kerry - and including Kerry - were making a big fuss over here.

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

I can hardly believe two guys want to pick nits over 20 versus 20-somethong. Could the difference possibly have any relevance.

Okay, Brian, you wanted to fly jets and you think Bush was a very brave guy because he flew them. Fine, think what you want. I'm with the Medal of Honor recipient, but nothing is 100% true so I'm sure there are a certain number of fellas who would have been scared to strap on a jet at that age,

I'm not 20 anymore and I would fly in the Space Shuttle in a heartbeat if I had the chance. If a lot of conservatives are afraid to fly fighters and think it's really brave to do so, okay with me. Funny though.

Actually, I know something about jet fighters and including about what your odds are of dying in one. I also know something else. Patrolling the skies of Texas so Giap couldn't invade Galvaston with his navy was apparently a really brave thing to do. Except that is, for flying jets or doing anything else where real hair was required - southeast asia. You just have to live with the fact that your guy had so much guts he said he didn't want to get outta those dangerous Texas skies.

If you and your guys are impressed with Bush's bravery, so be it.

See, there's this little bravery thing:

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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

AZ3 · Ensign Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 53 Location: San Diego

Where is the bit about him volunteering to turn down his return to stateside after four months?

Could it be that he felt he had dressed up his resume, emulated JFK enough and he could now move on to the next step, establishing himself as an anti-war activist....something far more productive at that point in time?
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Helantisubron 4, 1970-1974, Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club member, Shellback, American. Nuff said.

Keith · Lt.Jg. Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 130

Armorer · Seaman Recruit Joined: 03 Jun 2004 Posts: 14

What has the space shuttle got to do with any of this? So Kerry volunteered... then what did he do? How long was his brave tour of duty? What was the nature of his redeployment home? How about his actions afterwords? It makes you wonder about his motivations. You know, Hitler volunteered too, that doesn't mean he's not a war criminal. And the quote in your signature block is a load of crap. Having fear does not make one inferior, succumbing to that fear does. The bravest people in the world are those who did what they had to do despite the fear. And as for your sources, so nicely cut and pasted from some DNC page, I'm curious to see the rest of the form you claim is the President's. There's not even a name on it. What is the nature of this form? What's it for? Where's all the very authentic looking "official record" stamps? You want to know why two of us "nit picked" your assertion the President was 20? Because your loose grip on the facts and questionable use of sources is indicative of the quality of your research and therefore your argument. See, there's this little legitimacy thing...
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"Clean your weapons!"

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

Thanks, Keith, those strike me as fair comments.
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Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants. We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. -Gen Omar N. Bradley

hist/student · Lieutenant Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 243

retracted

publius · Ensign Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 69

95 bxl · Seaman Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 179

So, uh, Publius... care to show us Bill Clinton's request for Vietnam duty?

Can't do that.... can you?

And you know damned well that for the vast majority of Kerry-bots, Clinton's cowardice made absolutely NO difference.

So tell me... in the face of that fact... what difference does Kerry's service make? What difference does it make whether Bush requested overseas duty or not?

The bigger question is this: why is Kerry doing so badly among veterans? But I really would like an answer to the questions above.

You see, making a big deal out of Kerry's service while ignoring Bill Clinton's cowardice as he was elected President makes democrats the Party of Hypocrisy. You know it... and I know it.

BrianC · PO2 Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 364

If you and your guys are impressed with Bush's bravery, so be it.

.......

Wow, does that ever miss the point.

The question posed was, I believe, a sincere one - it asked why Veterans are so angry at Kerry.

What this rigamarole has to do with person X and their bravery is just adding a smokescreen.

Veterans are angry with Kerry for his actions and statements that effectively gave cause to the NVA for keeping the war going.
I note that no one has bothered to comment on the bit I included about the statement made by General Giap. Gee, I wonder why that is...?

hist/student · Lieutenant Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 243

retracted

LewWaters · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:33 am Post subject:

Greenhat · LCDR Joined: 09 May 2004 Posts: 405

LewWaters · Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:51 am Post subject:

Maybe Publius should have spent some time in military flight slots and found out firsthand. Maybe he doesn't realize there are some extremely stringent requirements to even qualify for flight training. Out of those that qualify, many don't make the grade.

Navy_Navy_Navy · Admin Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 5777